LOL. Reminds me of Monty Python's Mr. Creosote, the French waiter and the "wafffer thin" mint...
Posted on 06/10/2007 4:48:46 AM PDT by markomalley
Roman Catholic Christians share with most Christians the faith that Jesus Christ, on the night he was betrayed, ate a final or last supper with his Apostles. This final meal was also the celebration of the Jewish Passover or Feast of the Unleavened Bread which commemorated the passing over of the Jews from the death in slavery to the Egyptians to life in the Promised Land.
Christians differ in the meaning this Last Supper has to them and the Church today. Catholic Christians together with other historical Christian Churches (e.g., Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans and some Episcopalians, etc.) believe the literal words of Jesus - that the bread and wine are truly his body and blood. Other later Christian Churches profess a mere symbolic meaning to the words of Jesus.
The faith of the Catholic Church is based on both a fundamental principle of hermeneutics and the constant faith of the Church from Apostolic times.
The Catholic Church teaches that the first principle of hermeneutics--the science of the translation and interpretation of the Bible--is the literal meaning of the text.
The first writer of the New Testament was the apostle Paul. His Letter to the Corinthians was written as early as 56 AD, earlier than the first Gospel, Mark's, written about 64 AD. Paul was also not an eyewitness to what he wrote but testifies to his source.
The next New Testament text in chronological order would have been Mark's Gospel. Written about 64 AD, in Rome, Mark, not an eyewitness, probably heard the account of the Last Supper he recorded from the Apostle Peter.
The third account of the Last Supper could be Matthew's. Matthew, the tax collector Levi, was an eyewitness to the meal. He was one of the twelve Apostles. Matthew probably wrote his Gospel in the 70's.
Luke's account of the Last Supper, written from the standpoint of a Gentile convert and a non-eyewitness, probably heard the details of the Last Supper from Paul. Luke was a traveling companion of Paul. Luke also wrote in the 70's.
The beloved disciple, John, the last of the New Testament writers, wrote his Gospel in the 90's. John was an eyewitness to the events of the Last Supper (Jn 6:30-68).
Hence Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.
The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.
The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.
Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.
Non believers often respond that even at the Last Supper, the apostles did not sense that they had flesh in their hands and blood in their cup. But Jesus is God. The creative literalness of the words: "This is my body; this is my blood" must be believed. God cannot lie. And God can turn bread into flesh and wine into blood without the appearances of bread and wine changing.
Medieval philosophers and theologians called this expression of Divine Truth and Creative Power "transubstantiation". Yes, God can change the substance of any created matter while the appearances remain unchanged. And this demands faith.
Paul confirms elsewhere in his letters the reality of the real presence.
The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.
Irenaeus (Asia Minor, 140 - 202), Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258) are just a few of the earliest who attest to the objective reality of the words of Christ.
In the Church in Alexandria, Athanasius (293 - 373) and Cyril (376 - 444) equally attest to the literal meaning of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.
In the Church in Palestine, Cyril (Jerusalem, 315 - 387) and Epiphanius (Salamis, 367 - 403) also affirm in their teaching the same reality.
Unanimity is found across the universal church until the 11th century. Berengar (Tours, France, 1000 - 1088) was one of the first to deny the real presence by arguing that Christ is not physically present, but only symbolically.
The Council of Rome (a local council), 1079, taught against Berengar that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.
By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ's presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority (see Chapter 5) had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.
The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words "Do this in remembrance of me."
Roman Catholic Christians celebrate the Eucharist in the liturgical act called the Mass. The word Mass comes from the Latin missa ("sent"). It was taken from the formula for dismissing the congregation: Ite missa est ("Go, the Eucharist has been sent forth") referring to the ancient custom of sending consecrated bread from the bishop's Mass to the sick and to the other churches.
The Mass contains two parts: the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of the Word is a copy of the Jewish synagogue service of the first century: readings from Scripture followed by responses from the congregation often from the Book of Psalms. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is a reenactment of the Last Supper. A celebrant does what Christ did: take bread and wine and say the same words Christ said and then share the now consecrated bread and wine with the congregation.
Roman Catholics believe that the bread and wine become the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and remain such until the elements are entirely consumed. The Body and Blood not consumed at one Eucharist are reserved for the next celebration of the Eucharist and venerated as the Body and Blood of Jesus.
Roman Catholic Christians take the word of God seriously and seek to remember Christ in the Last Supper "as often as" possible. And in doing this proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
Catholic Christians also believe that there is only one sacrifice, Jesus', but following the command "as often as" to proclaim the death of the Lord, the sacrifice of Christ is made physically present to every Christian in all places in every age. The Eucharist makes the atemporal aphysical actions of Christ's redeeming action truly present to us always and everywhere. This is incarnational.
Following the word of God, Catholics also know that Christ is not and cannot be resacrificed. This has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church.
The constant faith of the Church from the Apostolic Fathers attests to the fact that the Mass was the one Sacrifice of Calvary made present to the faithful.
The 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this statement explicitly.
The Roman Catholic Church through history approached her faith life with the clarification of language. That is, she translated the essentials of revealed faith into the vocabulary of living language.
Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.
Jesus (omnipotent God) said: "This is my body; this is my blood." And again Jesus said: "I am the bread of life;" "My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;" "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ...;" etc.
Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.
From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.
Similar to all of God's Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.
Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.
Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts--sight, taste, smell, touch--do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! "Transubstantiation" merely labels it.
In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.
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Tiki, I do believe you have really nailed it here.
It’s not true. I don’t know if the untruth is negligent or malicious. But it’s not true.
Well, if you're right, I'll remember that if I ever decide to ditch the Bible. Are you suggesting that disagreeing with Sola Scripture is ditching the Bible?
Tiki said he/she doesn't quote scripture because there are "10,000" interpretations of it. How did you manage to put completely different words in my mouth?
LOL. Notice how you ignored the part of my post that said every word of Calvin and the Protestant confessions are based on Scripture.
(That's what those little numbers refer to next to nearly every sentence in both.)
Protestants are happy to rely on Scripture as the final authority by which we measure all of life because we are confident the Holy Spirit speaks through Scripture. Not only does Scripture tell us this, but the Holy Spirit produces good fruit in our lives that prove it true.
The RCC, however, relies on men and magisteriums, changeable dictates from fallible men who tend to disregard the word of God for their own leanings.
Again, we are known by our fruits.
And how many stigmatics has Calvinism produced?
-A8
stfassisi, the Synod of 1672 in Jerusalem establishes that we share in 7 Mysteries (sacraments). It is not that we can come together in this regard, but that we are together in this regard. :)
Our sacraments, clergy and Apostolic succession, even the pirmacy of +Peter, are what makes us one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We are not in communion with some bishops because we have not worked out theological perspectives that seem to divde us and because we have yet to establish mutually agreeable limits or extent of papal primacy.
From the Synod of Jerusalem
Article XVI.—Teaches the necessity of baptism for salvation, baptismal regeneration (John iii. 5), infant baptism, and the salvation of baptized infants (Matt. xix. 12). The effect of baptism is the remission of hereditary and previous actual sin, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It can not be repeated; sins committed after baptism must be forgiven by priestly absolution on repentance and confession.
I don’t know what caused him to choose the term he used, but you could be right. Trying to connect the understanding of the Trinity reached at the CoN to our understanding of the Euchrist would make a whole lotta sense.
What matters to me is whether or not I believe there is Scriptural support behind the ideas.
Wrapping my mind around many of the ideas behind my beliefs tend to send me wandering around somewhere in outter space. If that makes me a metaphysician, I dunno. If I am, I’m afraid I’m not a very good one.
I believe God’s energy holds the universe as we know it together in its current form. Since energy & matter are different forms of the same thing... Bread, wine, the flesh & blood of Christ, all there. Don’t know if I’m right or not, cuz that takes a leap of faith.
To be honest, I hadn’t thought about it much, but your last line, “A “miracle” that —like the Resurrection is not a miracle but more like Creation itself.”, connected with me.
I see another possibility, cuz negativity isn't tying me down.
What a strange question. Since stigmatas (stigmati?) are a Romanist misconception, wrongly founded on individual, visual representations of blood and suffering (a RC preoccupation) I'd say by the grace of God, none.
We do learn something new every day on this forum. For instance, I didn't know the RCC teaches there are two kinds of stigmata, the visible and the invisible. And as asserted in NewAdvent, a person can ask God that their visible stigmatas be made invisible.
I wonder if it works the other way around -- from invisible to visible. "Please God, make my hands bleed."
Protestants understand that the cross we Christians bear is spiritual, and thus, it is spiritually discerned. The fruits of our salvation by Christ are the work of the Holy Spirit. They are a physical outpouring of the goodness and right-thinking God has ordained in our lives. They are not blood and pain; they are peace and gratitude and obedience and even more good fruit.
While all Christians suffer persecution for our belief in Jesus Christ, we are to bear that weight with joy and trust in God, just as Christ did...
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -- Hebrews 12:1-2"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Stigmatas are a figment of the chains of the RCC. Pray to be released from their bonds. The spiritual circumcision of your heart is all that God requires and the only blood that matters is the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf. For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end" -- 2 Corinthians 1:-13"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
Please note Paul's authoritative nod to Sola Scripture -- "for we write none other things unto you than what ye read or acknowledge..."
-A8
The God of the Universe is certainly no sadist. Stigmati are not from Him. As to their source, I don’t think anyone has speculated.
Are you offering the devil up as your suggestion? Or are you defending against an assertion that was never put forward?
The Romanists worship, as Knox stated, a 'wafer god'.
So GIVE, already!
They got their stigmatas from holding their rosaries too tight.
That's a great question and the answer has to do with the different meanings Protestants and Catholics attribute to justification and sanctification.
For the Catholic, they are much the same thing. The RCC teaches that both justification and sanctification are ongoing throughout life, i.e. men must obey and repent in order to receive God's grace.
According to the historic Protestant faith, we believe Scripture tells us that justification is the one-time atonement Christ made for His flock. Since God ordained all that comes to pass, He likewise ordained the names of the elect from before the foundation of the world. Two thousand years ago He determined that Christ, God Himself, would come to earth, suffer for the sake of His sheep, die for their sins and be resurrected to prove it all true so that you and I could stand before God acquitted of our sins, blameless by the covering of blood of Jesus Christ.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -- Romans 5:8-19 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Sanctification, however, is a life-long process whereby the indwelling Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts and turns our eyes from sin to God.
We will never be perfect; we will always sin. It's our human nature. But by the grace of God, we will sin less and less as the Holy Spirit makes Himself known in our hearts and guides our steps.
God expects us to acknowledge this fact. And so we ask forgiveness every day for every sin we commit, confident that every sin has already been forgiven by His sacrifice. Just like we ask for a repentent heart and an obedient will. Just like we are instructed to pray for everything we want, all with God knowing exactly what we need before we ask Him. By the grace of God, those gifts are given to us. As William Buckley once wrote, gratitude is the proper perspective of the Christ mind. Coming from a Roman Catholic, I thought that was very Reformed of him. 8~)
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:1-10"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
It all comes down to trust. Either we trust that Christ has paid the penalty for our sins, or we don't.
I really enjoy the Westminster Larger Catechism's perspective, particularly its first question...
Question 1: What is the chief and highest end of man?
Answer: Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever.
LOL. Reminds me of Monty Python's Mr. Creosote, the French waiter and the "wafffer thin" mint...
Amen!!! This is a new one. I especially liked the gal who was so humble that she prayed that no one see them and it was so. I wonder how that would play out...
Peasants - "Ooooo...clearly you must be a saint for we can't see your stigmatas."
St. Catherine of Siena - "Well, that must be the reason. What would you like me to pray about?"
Peasants - "Not so fast, you must prove you're a saint."
St. Catherine of Siena - "Well, I had some mystical visions of Christ."
Peasants - "That's a start."
St. Catherine of Siena - "I was always happy even when the other nuns and friars treated me bad."
Peasants - "Wow, that's a big plus. We've gone to some of those Catholic schools."
St. Catherine of Siena - "And during the summer of 1370 I had some prolonged trances in which I received a series of special manifestations of Divine mysteries."
Peasants - "That only happens to us when we get a bad bit of beef. OK, you're in. Would you pray that we get refrigeration?"
Stigmatas are not "misconceptions" or conceptions. Concepts exist in our minds. Stigmata are wounds on a person's body. Were St. Padre Pio's stigmata, which he bore for 50 years (1918-1968), of the devil? If so, why did he (and St. Francis of Assisi) live such holy lives?
Some videos about St. Padre Pio can be viewed here and here. Here is a video of his last mass.
-A8
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