Jesus Family Tomb Talking Points

Gamecock

[Gamecock]

I'm sure that by now all of you have heard about the claim that the ossuary of Christ's family has been found.

I would like to open a thread that will help us develop answers to friends, both Christians and atheists who might come to us with questions about it all.

Please feel free to post your rebuttals for others to use!

Biblical, rational, scientific, philosophical, whatever you can come up with is more than welcome!

[Gamecock]

**anti-Catholic**

Now, now, let's keep this ecumenical. (can't believe I said that, can you;-)) We have a common foe here.

[BibChr]

My partner Frank Turk put up numerous excellent links.

Dan
Biblical Christianity BLOG
Pyromaniacs

[Cvengr]

Take the situation as an opportunity to communicate the Gospel.

There is no need to debate, because even if one were to win a debate empirically or rationally, such would be good for nothingness without faith in Christ.

The type of tomb was described in the Gospels, and the guarding of he tomb was documented in the Gospels. The penalty for a Roman soldier who allowed the object he was guarding to be taken illegitimately was death. Multiple guards fell asleep and a stone larger than could be moved by one man was moved to unseal the tomb. They were very cognizant of what had happened, to the point of going to the chief priests who then conspired to fabricate lies in an agreement where the priests would then defend them so they wouldn't be executed. (Matthew 28:11-15) Note, that the guards would fully admit to their seniors that they had fallen asleep at their posts,..a crime punishable by death, then they alleged Christ's followers had come and taken away the body, when all of his followers believed he was still in the grave and were in remorse, not realizing the meanings of the Prophecies (John 20:9). In addition, the priests were conspiring in a worldly fashion to retain worldly control of their religion(Matt 28:11-15). This is an important point, because today, just as then, those who will believe in Him through faith see clearly the truth, while those who deny Him, will prefer to follow worldly thinking.

Those who will be saved, will be saved purely by Him, by His grace, while those who reject Him, and seek to reject faith, are given that freedom in their volition.

Not only was the body gone from the tomb (Luke 24:1-5, Mark 16:1-7,John 20:1-10), Jesus Christ was seen for some 40 days along with many others who had been ressurrected. He was touchable and ate meat while in His resurrected body. His wounds were unique and touched by his disciples.(John 20:24-31)

He was the first fruits. He ascended to heaven in his resurrection body.

Prior to His crucifixion, Peter was prophecied to deny him three times before the cock crowed. Peter insisted this would never happen, as one of his closest disciples. While our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus was taken to the high priest, asked if He was indeed the Christ, Son of the Blessed, and our Lord responded "I am", and the high priest rent his clothes, shortly thereafter, Peter denied or Lord three times to avoid being associated with Him in public. (Mark 14:40-72)

Even his disciples didn't believe he had risen when first told of it. Instead they made first hand eyewitness testimony that He had indeed left the tomb.(Luke 24:10-12, Mark 16:6-11)

Later He was seen by them and they even touched His resurrected body. (Luke 24:34-53,

[Texas Patriot]

Pinging for later

[Larry Lucido]

Had to do a double take. I thought the title said "Jesus Family Talking Tomb." I was picturing some lame Easter display complete with loudspeaker.

[Gamecock]

I think I many have seen one of those one time, but then again I'm from SC!

[Tallguy]

How do we know that some misguided pilgrim didn't set this up at some point in the distant past?

That was my first thought.

[Tallguy]

Wasn't the True Cross lost to Saladin at the Battle of the Horns of Hattin? Thought I read that somewhere...

[lightman]

The type of tomb was described in the Gospels, and the guarding of he tomb was documented in the Gospels. The penalty for a Roman soldier who allowed the object he was guarding to be taken illegitimately was death

Particularly since "sealing" the tomb literally meant placing a wax seal bearing the emblem of the Roman Empire on the entrance to the tomb. Moving stone = breaking seal = high treason. Resurrection is a capital offense. No wonder the guards were eager to spread the falsehood that the disciples had stolen the body.

[WKB]

Baptist ping

[Andrew Byler]

Isn't it amazing that these "scientific" "discoveries" are made and announced a few weeks before Easter every year?

If we tricked them one year and held Easter in August, would we get these "discoveries" in July?

[Andrew Byler]

How about the nails that held Christ to the Cross that are kept in Rome?

[Bringbackthedraft]

"Wasn't the True Cross lost to Saladin at the Battle of the Horns of Hattin? Thought I read that somewhere.."

I believe it was a cross with a "piece" of the original attached to it.

[MadIvan]

That's a new one on me. Still, it's doubtful they can verify any DNA on these relics as being authentic.

Regards, Ivan

[Andrew Byler]

The true cross was lost to the Persians, then regained by Emperor Heraclius. It was never lost to Saladin. And parts of it had already been spread about the world by the time of Heraclius.

As far as anyone knows, the various pieces of wood around the world purporting to be bits of the true cross are bits of the true cross.

[Uri’el-2012]

Isn't it amazing that these "scientific" "discoveries" are made and announced a few weeks before Easter every year?

If we tricked them one year and held Easter in August, would we get these "discoveries" in July?

32 posted on 02/26/2007 8:15:14 AM MST by Andrew Byler

Well; Passover is April 3rd this year;

and the day following the Shabbat
following Passover is the Ordained
Feast of First Fruits is April 8th

b'shem Yah'shua

[magisterium]

Where to begin...

Well, looking at the Discovery Channel website's treatment of this "finding," it is clear that we're not dealing with a scholarly understanding of the issues. Just for starters, they say that the Herodian Period was from "1 B.C. to 1 A.D." Uh, guys, that's only a maximum of two years! And then there's this bombshell of a revelation, delivered to breathless listeners by one Jodi Magness, associate department chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina: "Jesus likely lived during the first century A.D." Do tell! And this pronouncement is, according to the Discovery Channel's take on Ms. Magness' rare powers of discernment, "based on the New Testament writings." No way!!!???

Clearly, we're dealing with purveyors of junk science here who will swallow just about anything their vapid minds think will enhance their ratings. So, enough about the cable channel airing this tripe, what about the tripe itself?

How can DNA extracted from the remains in the ossifies "prove" that the remains are Jesus of Nazareth and His family? To prove such a thing, one needs to have a sample from a known, undisputed member of His family. Do we know of any such person living today? No. Do we know of any such person who died after Jesus' time on earth? No. Therefore, it is simply ridiculous to make the claim that the DNA samples can be identified with Jesus Christ and His kin, real or putative. The best the DNA can do is prove that these people were of Palestinian Jewish lineage. But we already *know* that from the site of the burial (Jerusalem) and the obviously Jewish names found inscribed - Jesus (Yeshua), Mary (Miriam), Matia (Matthew), Yousef (Joseph), and Judah. These were, moreover, very common names for the place and time, sort of like finding a family plot in the US with names like John, William, Mary, Joseph and Robert. So what?

But the explanation given for the sixth name is a real mind bender. The claim is made that the sixth ossuary contains the remains of Mary Magdalene (of course!). Does the ossuary have that name inscribed on it? No. It says "Mariamene e Mara" in Greek (btw: all of the others are written in Aramaic or Hebrew), which is translated as "Mary known as the master." The Discovery Channel quotes Francois Bovon, professor of the history of religion at Harvard as saying "Mariamene, or Mariamne, probably was the actual name given to Mary Magdalene." Citations, please, professor! His only "evidence" is that the apocryphal text "Acts of Philip" mentions the Apostle Philip's alleged sister Mariamne, so, naturally, he presumes this *must* be Mary Magdalene! Honestly, that appears to be the only connection!

So we have somebody named Yeshua presumed to be the spouse of someone named Mariamne who seem to have had a son named Judah. GOTTA be *that* Jesus, right? Well, who are the Matthew and Mary mentioned? Well, they must be more kids of Jesus and Magdalene, or maybe their brother and sister, or...something. Who knows? But since we have a Yeshua and someone else who is implausibly contorted into Mary Magdalene, EVERYTHING else "logically" falls into place.

Well, what about this Joseph they found? Hmmm. There's good Scriptural evidence that Joseph died before Jesus' ministry, since he never apes in His public life and Mary was entrusted to the Apostle John at the cross. That would mean that he was almost certainly buried in Nazareth, and, as a carpenter (not exactly a lucrative occupation at the time) he was probably buried very simply in Nazareth. He most certainly would not have been disinterest and relocated to Journalism due to an aversion to such relocation practices. He definitely wouldn't have been relocated by Christians who, between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, would never have had the nerve to flout the ever-watchful Jewish authorities in reburying the father of that hated "cult leader" Jesus of Nazareth! In a costly tomb built to contain costly ossuaries, presumably with much ceremony for passersby to notice! With Jesus *Himself* conveniently buried there for the authorities to present dead to the world!

Well, there's more, but I'm at work and I've gotta get going. James Cameron is "under the ban" from here on in my household!

[magisterium]

Paragraph 3. "ossifies" = "ossuaries" Oops!

[ZGuy]

Cameron is doing what people from Hollywood are supposed to do (in their own warped way of thinking). He has seen Moore win an Oscar for a fictitious documentary. He has seen Gore win an Oscar for a fictitious documentary. Cameron is betting he will get huge publicity and probably an Oscar from Hollywood for this fictitious documentary.