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Which One God ? ( Comparing the Christian and Muslim Conceptions of God ).
National Review ^ | 12/04/2006 | Bat Yeor

Posted on 12/04/2006 10:22:38 AM PST by SirLinksalot

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To: fish hawk

You missed my point, though. It isn't about whether we are sinners or not, we are. It is a question of God turning His back and forsaking sinners as some suggest He did to Christ when He took our sins on Himself. If God is one to turn His back on Christ due to the sins He personified, then, if God is consistent, Christ should never have come to begin with. If God forsakes sinners, we were forsaken, not forgiven.

However, God does not forsake sinners and we were saved from our sins by a loving God. Christ wasn't forsaken on the Cross, He was teaching His followers to look to Psalm 22 for the answers on what they were witnessing.

With that, I will go home. Good night and God bless.


81 posted on 12/04/2006 2:38:55 PM PST by pgyanke (Gay marriage does to real marriage what counterfeit money does to real money. - Hemogoblin)
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To: Squidpup; VRWCer

Now think about how many chapters there are in the Koran. Hint: it's a certain three-digit number.


82 posted on 12/04/2006 2:38:56 PM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: pgyanke
May God bless you

And you as well.

Nice homepage, great quotes.

83 posted on 12/04/2006 2:39:07 PM PST by Risha (Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God)
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To: Excellence
Another difference between the Jews and Christians is the Jews don't believe the Messiah is a supernatural being .

So if it could be proved that Jesus was a Jewish Messiah, the Jews would not consider him as Christians do to be the son of God. - tom

84 posted on 12/04/2006 2:48:02 PM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
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To: Capt. Tom

From the Abrahamic to Davidic covenants, God promised an everlasting Kingship. There is only one who is an everlasting King and Son of David and only one in Whom this could be accomplished.

It is not that the Jews worship a different God, they just don't recognize Jesus as the perfect fulfillment of God's promises.

Okay, NOW I'm going home...


85 posted on 12/04/2006 2:52:53 PM PST by pgyanke (Gay marriage does to real marriage what counterfeit money does to real money. - Hemogoblin)
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To: wideawake

Thank You! Allah is a generic word for a divinity just like the English word God. Show me ANYWHERE in the pislamic "holy" books (koran or hadith or the sira) that the arabic name for Yahweh is mentioned. In syriac it's Mariah (MAAR YA). If we can translate it so could they, but they don't. What further proof do we need that they do not worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob/Israel?


86 posted on 12/04/2006 2:57:09 PM PST by John Philoponus
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon

Why is 114 significant?


87 posted on 12/04/2006 3:05:02 PM PST by zimdog
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To: Romish_Papist

Hehe yes I'm aware of the unfortunate situation those terrorists for allah are in. My people have said all along that the bulk of the koran (piss be upon it) was nothing more than an Arian tool used to convert pagan Arabs. Arius,you son of a bitch, I pray to God that you're roasting in hellfire as I type this.


88 posted on 12/04/2006 3:08:51 PM PST by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
Allah is a generic word for a divinity just like the English word God.

"Allah" is the word for a single monotheistic God, just like the English word "God."

If we can translate it so could they, but they don't.

It's translated to "Allah", also many of the lesser Hebrew and Aramaic names of God ("The Truth" "The First and the Last") have direct cognates in Qur'anic Arabic.

89 posted on 12/04/2006 3:12:53 PM PST by zimdog
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To: zimdog

allah is not the word for a single monotheistic God. If that was the case, how would muhammed's PAGAN FATHER have a last name - abdallah which means slave of god? Pagan Arabs used that word long before there was even a muhammed. There is no way in hell that allah is a translation of the word Yahweh, no way. check out wikipedia -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

It's a generic word meaning "the god". One of allah's daughters was named "allat" which means "the goddess". Allah = Alaha = Elaha = Eloah. A generic title for a deity. To this day I have yet to see the name Yahweh translated into Arabic.


90 posted on 12/04/2006 3:22:16 PM PST by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
A quick explanation might be that as an unknowing servant of God, he brought Muhammad into the world. but there is a difference between "al-lah" or "al-ilah" (the god) and "Allah" (God) a written form that didn't exist in the pre-Islamic era.

There is no way in hell that allah is a translation of the word Yahweh, no way. check out wikipedia -

"Yahweh" is not the Name of God, it is an approximation thereof based on the unvocalized Tetragrammaton YHVH. Since "Yahweh" appears nowhere in the Hebrew text of the Bible, the vocalization marks of Adonai were added later to remind the readers to refrain from attempting to pronounce The Name, which hasn't been pronounced since the destruction of the Second Temple.

It's a generic word meaning "the god".

Then it would be two words: the definite article al- and the word for "god" ilah.

Allah = Alaha = Elaha = Eloah. A generic title for a deity.

And on the Cross, when Jesus said Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani?, He was invoking a generic god as well? He certainly didn't say "Yahweh" or the complete 72-syllable name of God.

To this day I have yet to see the name Yahweh translated into Arabic.

Proper nouns, especially personal names, rarely require translation.

91 posted on 12/04/2006 3:45:02 PM PST by zimdog
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To: zimdog

1) Allah didn't exist in written form before muhammed's time?
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allah.html
This link says otherwise.

2) Where then is the muslim equivalent of the word Yahweh? If middle eastern Christians can do it, why not muslims? To this day, does ANYONE know what Yahweh translates into in arabic?

3) If that's the case then how do you explain allah's daughter's name "Allat" which literally means "The Goddess"? or his other daughter's name "Aluzzah" which means "The invincible"? allah means "the god". What muslims say now means nothing to me. It originally meant "the god", nothing more, nothing less.

4) Jesus didn't call out "Yahweh" because Jews (believing Jews) never used that word because it was considered so holy. Eloi means "my God", Jesus being Jewish was addressing it to Yahweh. When a Christian says "Thank God" we rigthly assume he's referring to the Judeo-Christian deity Yahweh. When a Hindu says "Thank God" we would rightly assume he's addressing a deity in his pantheon of Gods. God is not a proper name like : Jesus, Vishnu, Yahweh, Zeus, etc....

5) Find, show me how the word Yahweh is in any way connected with the word "allah".


92 posted on 12/04/2006 3:59:31 PM PST by John Philoponus
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To: pgyanke
Our Lord was on the Cross for six hours, from approximately nine o'clock in the morning until about three o'clock in the afternoon. He was physically alive during the entire period, but the three hours from 12 noon until 3:00 P.M. was the period of His spiritual death. He had no sin of His own. He came to the Cross without spiritual death. But as the impeccable God-Man hung upon the Cross, the sins of the world were poured out on Him, and the Father judged our sins in Him.

This was His spiritual death. While being judged in our place, His humanity was separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. It was His substitutionary spiritual death that was efficacious for our salvation.

We know that he was physically alive while being judged because He kept screaming, "My God (the Father), my God (the Holy Spirit), why hast thou forsaken me?" He was quoting Psalm 22:1 where the verb in the imperfect tense indicates that He shouted this over and over again. Christ was forsaken because " ...he(the Father)hath made him(Christ)to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

When His spiritual death was complete, Jesus Christ shouted, "Tetelestai!" - the perfect tense meaning, "it is finished in the pasty with results that go on forever!"

Note that our Lord was still speaking after salvation was completed. Obviously He could not have spoken if He were physically dead! And certainly if He was still physically alive on the Cross after salvation was complete, His physical death could have nothing whatever to do with the payment for sin!

He died physically by His own volition- no one took His life! His work on the earth was finished, the Father's Plan called for Him to depart and He dismissed His own spirit.

source: The Blood of Christ by R.B.Thieme Pastor of Barachah church in Texas. Dallas Theological Seminary Summa Cum Laude. Nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. Now teaching isagogical,categorical and exegetical teaching of the Word of God.

93 posted on 12/04/2006 4:34:25 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: SirLinksalot

I said a God who would do so, not a God who did.

The Jews fully expect a Messiah to come from our God, the gentiles believe he already did.

The muslims piously assure us they worship the same God, but wriggle out of the question of whether they believe "the prophet Jesus" to have been a liar, a con man, or mentally ill.


94 posted on 12/04/2006 4:38:23 PM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
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To: John Philoponus
This link says otherwise.

The link does not actually say that. Although I find it interesting that the same site claims that Yahweh was a Canaanite rain god with a bull-horned helmet.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/el.html

Where then is the muslim equivalent of the word Yahweh? What is the Muslim equivalent of Milwaukee? YHVH is that YHVH is. If any name is untranslatable, it is The Name. The Tetragrammatron can be represented in Arabic by four letters, just as it is represented by four letters in the Roman alphabet. Ya`-ha`-waw-ya` is much closer to yod-he-vav-he than Y-H-V-H is.

It originally meant "the god", nothing more, nothing less.

And "I am that I am" originally meant a affirmative statement of existence. God's revelation changed that.

More importantly, "al-ilah" is two words meaning "the god" and "Allah" is a single word meaning "God".

Eloi means "my God", Jesus being Jewish was addressing it to Yahweh.

Specifically, it means, "my El", referring to the Levantine sky god El, the husband of the goddess Ashera and the father of the gods Hadad, Yam, and Mot. According to the pantheon.org source you quoted, El is traditionally (as well as Biblically) associated with YHVH.

Find, show me how the word Yahweh is in any way connected with the word "allah". [sic]

They are both Names of God in the Abrahamic tradition, and the names used in Jewish Hebrew and Muslim Arabic scriptures, respectively.

95 posted on 12/04/2006 4:38:54 PM PST by zimdog
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To: zimdog
The Aramaic "el" and Arabic "ilah" share a proto-Semetic root mean small-g god. "Allah" is a contraction of "al-ilah", and means "the [one] God." Any decent Arabic-language Bible will use "Allah" for "God." As you have shown, "Allah" is much closer to the term that Jesus used for His Father than the Germanic "God".

I was startled the first time I attended a Mass in Turkish to hear the Creed open with profession of belief in Allah. However, that's not the name of a god, it's simply the Turkish word for God.

96 posted on 12/04/2006 4:46:10 PM PST by JoeFromSidney (My book is out. Read excerpts at www.thejusticecooperative.com)
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To: JoeFromSidney
I was startled the first time I attended a Mass in Turkish to hear the Creed open with profession of belief in Allah. However, that's not the name of a god, it's simply the Turkish word for God.

It is the Arabic (and Turkish, apparently) word for God. For Muslims, it is a Name of God, just as Jesus is a Name of God for Christians.

97 posted on 12/04/2006 4:54:53 PM PST by zimdog
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To: zimdog
Let's try this again : 1) From the link - "The exclusive monotheistic deity in Islam. The name is derived from 'al-ilah', which literally means "the god". The Prophet Muhammad declared Allah the one and only god (of the Islam) in the 7th century CE. In pre-Islamic times, Allah was the supreme creator-god of the Arabs. The goddesses Allat, Manat, and al-Uzza were considered to be his daughters. " It doesn't get any plainer than that. And from your link - "It is thought that he corresponded to the Hebrew god, Yahweh" You see that? "It is thought", no proof either way. Show me where the name "Yahweh" appears in ancient Pagan texts. When did I ever claimn that the names "El", "Eloim", "Eloah", etc.. weren't in use by Pagan tribes around Israel. This just further proves my point. El, allah, Eloah, Eloi, Elohim are GENERIC names for deity. Just like the word "god". 2) If you can't see what I'm getting at with this point (that the name Yahweh appears no where in islamic holy texts) then I can't help you. The name "allah" does not (and has never) = "Yahweh". EVER. It has never been translated into arabic despite the fact that other semitic peoples (Assyrians and Chaldeans) have translated "Yahweh" as "Mariah" both meaning "Lord". 3) Are you trying to be difficult? "allah" is a contraction of "al ilah" both mean "the god". just like "Allat" is a contraction of "Al lāhat" both meaning "The Goddess". The link I gave you says this in plain English - "allah" = "al ilah" : http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allah.html "Allat" = "Al lāhat" : http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allat.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Lat 4) I never said it meant anything other than god, El was a generic name for deity. From wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28god%29 "Cognate forms are found throughout the Semitic languages with the exception of the ancient Ge'ez language of Ethiopia. Forms include Ugaritic ’il, pl. ’lm; Phoenician ’l pl. ’lm, Hebrew’ēl, pl. ’⁏lîm; Aramaic ’l, Arabic ʾilāh; Akkadian ilu, pl. ilāti. The original meaning may have been 'strength, power'. In northwest Semitic usage ’l was both a generic word of any 'god' and the special name or title of a particular god who was distinguished from other gods as being the god, or even in our modern sense God." 5) And you have yet to show me how the word "allah" in arabic relates in any way to the word "Yahweh".
98 posted on 12/04/2006 5:01:01 PM PST by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus

Show me where "Yahweh" is in the Torah.


99 posted on 12/04/2006 5:06:47 PM PST by zimdog
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To: zimdog

You know damn well what I mean. "YHWH" who many believe is pronounced "Yahweh" is in the Torah. And according the the Jewish Encyclopedia it's found all over the Torah :
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=165&letter=T&search=yahweh

And in the Syriac bibles it's found all over the Torah too, but TRANSLATED INTO SYRIAC as "Mariah". A feat muhammed, his followers, and his demon never managed to accomplish. So again what is "Yahweh" translated into arabic?


100 posted on 12/04/2006 5:14:50 PM PST by John Philoponus
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