Posted on 01/25/2006 1:25:12 PM PST by xzins
III. THE FREE-WILL OF MAN
This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace.
But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good.
When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.
Calvin was a calvinist?
I've heard he was Rostafarian.....
This is not the issue of defending beliefs. Some threads are by their nature intended for this "marketplace of ideas" free-for all exchange. Others do not. There are subtle things of nuance that are only meaningful to Protestants. This one looks to me like one of them, becuase even though Arminius has some proximity to Catholicism, he was no Catholic, and likewise "arminian" Protestants today woudl vigorously deny any allegiance to Rome. So, it is an internal Protestant matter. Of course I can barge right in and begin questioning the very foundation of Protestantism, e.g. sola scriptura or sola fide. That will transform the thread into a Protestant on Catholic thread. The nuance important to, say, a Methodist will be lost, he will be either squeezed out of the discussion or feel incumbent upon himself to defend Protestantism as a whole shoulder to shoulder with Calvinists. Likewise a Calvinist would miss an opportunity to calmly discuss the free will from a common set of Protestant assumptions with fellow Protestants. Everyone loses: we get another generic Catholic in Protestant thread and stuff that could be discussed between Protestants and not only strengthen but also refine their faith would be left out.
I am not against Catholic-on-Protestant threads at all and am an active participant in them. It is not like I am running away from defending my faith, -- can you honestly say that I do? I am for greater diversity of threads. Some matter is better discussed among people with shared common assumptions. I would like to discuss some nuances about, say, veneration of saints. There should be an avenue for me to do so without immediately getting diverted into foundational questions about the very idea of venerating saints. It does not mean that I want a private Catholic only forum -- I could just go to catholic.com and be done with it. The fact that non-Protestants can read and ask a question is, I am sure, of value to the initiator of the thread. Jo Kus did just that. Kolokotronis, on the other hand, lobbed a grenade into the middle of a discussion that would destroy the opportunity for a nuanced discussion. Of course everyone looks forward to his posts, -- he is our most articulate, informed, and polite posters. But the outcome would have been detrimental to the very spirit of discussion that we have at FR.
The house of Jim Robinson has many chambers. We, as Christian people should have enough tact to give each other space. And we have means to do so. The Topics rubric has a denominational section. Perhaps we should get into the habit of using it as we post and checking it when we initiate a reply. I realize that this one was General Dioscussion, by the way, but I am not sure it was indended that way. Surely if a Muslim or a Buddhist crashed the party here challenging our common Christian beliefs Xzins would not welcome the diversion, because the argument about free will would be completely impossible.
I am flagging Religion Moderator not because I have any complaint but perhaps so that he can share with us his views on this issue.
As you have noted, there are threads in which these healthy debates seem to be invited, but IMO, when they go off topic, they become a waste of FR's bandwidth.
It's kind of like another FR pet peeve of mine. Whenever a topic of the French is brought up, and Napoleon is mentioned as a French Emperor, someone always feels compelled to butt in with the fairly well-known fact that Napoleon was by birth a Corsican. It always makes the thread go off on a "was Napoleon French or Corsican?" tangent when that was not the object of the thread.
You stated it all so well that I fear I am not adding anything to you post, other than a "hear, hear!".
There are a few of the sidebars that are viewed by the larger population of religious forum participants. General Discussion is viewed by the majority. That is why most threads end up in the General category. That is why I tend to post there. Another with decent attendance is Theology.
That is the primary reason I posted to General Discussion.
So far as various denominational input on the subject of grace or of free will....I welcome all except trolls to post. It is possible here, as happens in the main forum, for many side discussions to be going on. I haven't seen Kolo's grenade yet, but I'll go look for it.
I hear Arminius saying above that grace is necessary for free will before, during, and after God regenerates any individual. That seems thoroughly calvinistic to me.
That Arminius had certain disagreements with certain calvinistic camps is no surprise. So did other calvinists with other calvinistic camps.
It's almost as if one had to live live in the era to grasp the nuances that were in play.
But.....
Napolean WAS a Corsican.
:>)
ping
Interestingly, the Arminians will endlessly try to claim for themselves the mantle of John Calvin...
...Whereas no Calvinist anywhere, ever, has any interest whatsoever in claiming for himself the mantle of Jacob Arminius.
The memory of John Calvin is relentlessly reviled, defamed, distorted, and burned in effigy by his Protestant theological opponents... and yet, at the same time, they all still wish to claim him for themselves.
Interesting. Verrrry Interesting.
That doesn't surprise me. Arminius always described himself as a calvinist....saw himself as a calvinist.
Good to see you, OP.
In any case, I'm interested in what Arminius said about his thoughts rather than what others (whether opponents or uninformed supporters or mere strap-hangers) ascribe to him. That seems fair to me.
One said the other day that arminianism supports homosexuals being official representatives of a church. I have failed to find anyplace that Arminius did not advocate the biblical, natural husband/wife relationship. Thus my interest in Arminius' words rather than in what others thoughtlessly sling about.
Queries:
Just looking to establish some understanding of your argument.
Best, OP
You beat me to it. The natural result of this teaching is that one can "lose" their salvation.
It might interest you to know that Paul would NEVER have made that claim:
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4 KJV)
And rejected what Calvin taught.
One said the other day that arminianism supports homosexuals being official representatives of a church.
I've never said that (and I think you know I never have). Jacob Arminius would have vomited against such a thing, in his day (and I'm willing to say so).
I just think that it's interesting that, at the end of the day, even Protestant denominations who revile the teachings of John Calvin still want to call themselves "Calvinists", "Calviminians", "moderate Calvinists", and what have you; whereas no expressly-Calvinistic denomination has any interest whatsoever in calling itself "Arminian".
I guess it's sorta like a fertilizer salesman claiming that his product is "worth its weight in gold"; whereas no gold-broker has any interest whatsoever in claiming that his product is "worth its weight in sh*t."
Romans 8: 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice
9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
Israel's Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Ephesians 1
Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Are you asking what I believe or what Arminius believed?
I can answer for myself far more quickly than for Arminius. I'd have to look up words in which he actually states his position, and they'd have to relate in some recognizable way to your questions.
Speaking for myself
1. Obviously not, since not all are saved.
2. I think that a regenerated, elect man WILL not lose his salvation. The discussion whether he may is obviated by the fact that the truly regenerated WILL not. These are the elect.
3. Because those God regenerates WILL not fall.
I don't get that impression from reading Arminius. I think he saw himself modifying some of what Calvin thought, accepting most of it, and rejecting some of what others were interpreting Calvin to have taught.
I'm fairly convinced that the man Arminius never saw himself breaking with calvinism.
In the many years I've discussed calvin on these pages, I think I've learned quite a bit about him and his theology. I have mountains more to learn.
His was a commendable Christian life and theology replete with a few warts in each area... far fewer than I have in my own life.
I have no problem understanding why so many admired, admire, and are willing to be identified with him.
If you don't believe what Arminius believed, then I'd rather just discuss things with you.
Arminius' beliefs aren't really relevant if you don't agree with them anyway (nor should you. Arminius was wrong).
I can answer for myself far more quickly than for Arminius. I'd have to look up words in which he actually states his position, and they'd have to relate in some recognizable way to your questions. Speaking for myself: Do you believe that, Man since the Fall being conceived in a state of Spiritual Death, that therefore God universally regenerates Spiritual Life unto all Human Persons? 1. Obviously not, since not all are saved.
Okay, then:
...That a Fallen, Unregenerate, Spiritually Dead Human Being will *ever* perform any Spiritually-Righteous Acts of Thought or Deed, including Belief and Repentance -- without the absolute necessity of prior, monergistic resurrection unto Spiritual Life?
Best, OP
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