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To: kosta50; HarleyD
Exactly! The Protestant God designed and made the Creation, created man in a pristine world, then "planted" a serpent to tempt him -- knowing exactly that man will fail because God desired it so!

It appears to me that you do not believe that God is either omnipotent or omniscient.

In other words, it appears that you are saying that God is helpless in the face of evil and that God does not know the future and that he created the world with absolutely no idea as to how it would turn out.

855 posted on 01/09/2006 9:13:21 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Cronos
It appears to me that you do not believe that God is either omnipotent or omniscient. In other words, it appears that you are saying that God is helpless in the face of evil and that God does not know the future and that he created the world with absolutely no idea as to how it would turn out

Not at all! He is the Creator of everything and all. As an Orthodox Christian, I would say that He is a Mystery and beyond our comprehension. He is described in the Scriptures in anthropomorphic terms because of our limited intellect and vocabulary, and is by necessity not a true description of God. He message is true, merciful and just, even if we don't understand it, or see it, or comprehend it, or agree with it. This is His world. Why He does things is known but to Him.

I was simply making a "logical" flow chart of events according to what you reveal on this Forum collectively and I said it makes no sense that He would cause evil, and man's fall, and then become Flesh and suffer for our redemption when He has already "elected" some from before ages for that privilege. It's not God Who is at fault, obviously. We are with our imperfect knowledge, weakness, etc. It was not God's Covenant that was corrupt; it was rendered corrupt by the unbelieving Jews who were elect to witness the God of Abraham to all the nations of the world.

863 posted on 01/09/2006 9:42:01 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: P-Marlowe; Cronos

On a simpler note, maybe you can explain why is God saving us from Himself? After all, according to your teaching, this is ALL His doing, including the evil and the sin, so why did He not simply make the world, discard the damned and kepe the elect and be done with it? What's the point?


866 posted on 01/09/2006 9:54:27 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: P-Marlowe; kosta50; HarleyD
It appears to me that you do not believe that God is either omnipotent or omniscient.

On the contraray Marlowe, we believe that God is BOTH omnipotent and omniscient. We do not believe that God made us mere mindless creatures pre-choosing that some were to go to hell and others to heaven with no choice and (no fault of their own). We believe God genuinely loves us especially when we choose Him of our own volition -- that's why he made us above the base animals who have no will. Can God tomorrow decide to force all of His creation to follow His will with no question? YES, he can.

however, we believe that a loving, caring, Christian God WANTS us to choose Him and His grace. We are saved by grace alone, by choosing Him.
881 posted on 01/09/2006 11:42:31 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Cronos; HarleyD; jo kus; annalex
It appears to me that you do not believe that God is either omnipotent or omniscient

I will end on this note: the Apostolic Church believes, and has always believed that God is omnipotent and omniscient. And that man was endowed with free will.

God, in his absolute power and sovereignty and wisdom and knowledge, foresees our free choices, but does not make the choice for us. We do not "surprise" God. Our free choice does not change or interfere with God's plan, or thwart God's will, or limit His power, or threaten His plan. He has foreseen and incorporated our choices into His plan.

He intended us to be free moral beings, in His likeness and in His image. Only beasts move by necessity. Human beings choose. Sin is made possible only by choice. If we have no choice, we are innocent. If we are innocent, our fall is an unjust punishment. Our repentence and our redemption become oxymorons.

All the best to all of you.

925 posted on 01/10/2006 9:45:04 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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