Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[Cronos]

It appears to me that you do not believe that God is either omnipotent or omniscient.

On the contraray Marlowe, we believe that God is BOTH omnipotent and omniscient. We do not believe that God made us mere mindless creatures pre-choosing that some were to go to hell and others to heaven with no choice and (no fault of their own). We believe God genuinely loves us especially when we choose Him of our own volition -- that's why he made us above the base animals who have no will. Can God tomorrow decide to force all of His creation to follow His will with no question? YES, he can.

however, we believe that a loving, caring, Christian God WANTS us to choose Him and His grace. We are saved by grace alone, by choosing Him.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL.

[Cronos]

well, based on the tracts posted, KJV seems to be quite a distorted view of scripture.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

based on the tracts posted, KJV seems to be quite a distorted view of scripture.

You keep saying some pretty outrageous things, but you offer nothing to support your claims.

[Cronos]

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now you are twisting things around again. Believing in Christ is not the same as believing in a pre-destined "elect" and that some people are condemned to hell, which is what you believe. I believe God wishes to save everyone. Evidently you don't.

[Cronos]

Do you believe that God chose certain people to be condemned to hell and that He chose them from before they were born and condemned them to the path to hell? Thereby, that point negates the whole meaning of Christ coming to save us.

[Cronos]

. If God is omniscient, then nothing surprises him. If God is omnipotent, then nothing can happen which he did not either actively or passively ordain.

Again you jump to conclusions. No one said God is NOT omniscient or omnipotent. No one said that God is surprised. Your statement that If God is omnipotent, then nothing can happen which he did not either actively or passively ordain means that you think that God created sin, tha God ordains for people to sin, that He condemned some (perhaps you and me and everyone else here as well according to your philosophy) to hell.

[Cronos]

I am numbered among the Calvinists. I think it is because I accept the absolute authority of scripture

Nope, because of your belief in faith, in, as the New-agers say, Karma!

[Cronos]

So it would seem you pick and choose the mystery of God to suit your assumptions.

well, no, to us it seems that YOU are forget about picking and choosing, but actually creating and defining God's characteristics.

[Cronos]

Check your question.

[Cronos]

The question was "Has God chosen YOU for salvation?"

God has chosen all Mankind for Salvation. The only question is accepting it or not. I have, so the answer to the question is yes. God has also Chosen others who don't belong to the Church, the hinge-point is whether they accept it or not.

If you say that he has chosen "all of us" then that would mean either that all men are saved or that God chooses to save some and damn others

All men are in God's plan for salvation, so all men are potentially saveable. God chooses to save all, it's men who reject God's grace and are not saved. Does God know about this? Yes. Can He force everyone to get saved? Yes. Did He force Paul to get saved? NO. He gave him the choice, Paul could have rejected God's offer, but He didn't.

[Cronos]

A perfect refutation to your "If you say that he has chosen "all of us" then that would mean either that all men are saved or that God chooses to save some and damn others" is Job's case --> he ran from God, he rejected God's offer, but did God take over his mind and force him to preach? No, God compelled him to do so, you might even say beat him over the head with it, but he did NOT reduce him to a mindless animal with no free will.

[Cronos]

I'll point out the tracts you've posted

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We are saved by grace alone, by choosing Him.

So which is it? Are we saved by grace alone, or by our correct choice?

"That no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 1:29-31.

We cannot redeem ourselves; we cannot sanctify ourselves; we cannot make ourselves wise and we cannot make ourselves righteous.

All gifts from God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You wrote: "He did it at the start of all time..."

He (God) did what at the start of all time?

Or did you misspeak and not mean to write that God did something at the start of all time?

[Forest Keeper]

I say that no-one is truly lost at the start of their life. God is willing to save them at every stage of their lives, they just have to surrender.

That's a fair answer. One thing I can't square are cases like Judas and Pharaoh. I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus. Was God really willing to save Judas at every stage of his life? Wasn't Judas born to fulfill scripture?

I was just ready to offer you the out of saying that "if Judas had come to Christ, God would simply have selected another to betray Jesus". But this fails because Jesus CHOSE Judas as one of the twelve, knowing full well in advance what he would do. It was all by design. Judas fulfilled his destiny perfectly, as God determined. As harsh as it may sound, Judas did not have a chance because God so ordained it in His good, pleasing, and perfect will.

[Forest Keeper]

As per what you say, only God knows that, so let's make that supposition that no one here on this forum, either you or me or anyone else is part of your "elect".

I respectfully disagree. I think I have said that only God can know the salvation status of people in general, but that each individual person can be sure of his/her own salvation status in addition to God knowing. I can't be perfectly certain about you, although you might convince me to be 99% sure, and you can't be certain about me. However, we can be certain for ourselves about our own status. Therefore, and I hate to be a pain, but I must in all honesty say that I cannot join your supposition, and I must further declare that I am, indeed, a member of God's elect.

[Flame suit.......activated]

[Forest Keeper]

Seemingly, our Protestant friends over here suppose that they already know God's mind that they already believe they are Christ-like. I would equate that will fool-hardy and misplaced arrogance.

That's pretty mean, Cronos. Does it really seem to you that our beliefs are rooted in arrogance? According to all of "our" collective posts, do you really think we place faith in ourselves, or do we place it in God and the Bible? For the most part, where do our quotes and sayings come from?

It is true that we do not place our faith in the current men (or any previous men) occupying the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. It's fine if you disagree, and I enjoy both learning and debating, but you are attacking our motives. Is that a Catholic thing? If so, then I am very disappointed.

[Cronos]

Are we saved by grace alone, or by our correct choice?

We are saved by grace we choose. We cannot save ourselves except by surrendering to God's grace.

We cannot redeem ourselves; we cannot sanctify ourselves; we cannot make ourselves wise and we cannot make ourselves righteous.

We can't, but we can choose to let God work through us.

[Cronos]

your Question: Has God chosen you for salvation? If so, then when did he do it?

My answer:

God chose all mankind for salvation. He did it at the start of all time and made it available through Christ's sacrifice