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To: Cronos
I say that no-one is truly lost at the start of their life. God is willing to save them at every stage of their lives, they just have to surrender.

That's a fair answer. One thing I can't square are cases like Judas and Pharaoh. I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus. Was God really willing to save Judas at every stage of his life? Wasn't Judas born to fulfill scripture?

I was just ready to offer you the out of saying that "if Judas had come to Christ, God would simply have selected another to betray Jesus". But this fails because Jesus CHOSE Judas as one of the twelve, knowing full well in advance what he would do. It was all by design. Judas fulfilled his destiny perfectly, as God determined. As harsh as it may sound, Judas did not have a chance because God so ordained it in His good, pleasing, and perfect will.

896 posted on 01/10/2006 1:09:40 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus.

I would agree that God knew -- He IS omniscient.

Was God really willing to save Judas at every stage of his life?

I don't know, but I believe that God WAS willing to save Judas at every stage until and maybe even after Judas rejected him. Would God have put Judas into a strait-jacket and forced him to do one thing or the other? I don't believe it -- I don't believe God forced Judas to betray the Christ. Judas did it of his own free will and was damned out of his rejection of God's grace.

Wasn't Judas born to fulfill scripture?

No, Jesus was born to fulfill scripture. Did God KNOW that Judas would reject Him? YES, an emphatic YES. Did God pick Judas to sin? I don't believe so. God KNEW.

I was just ready to offer you the out of saying that "if Judas had come to Christ, God would simply have selected another to betray Jesus".

As Kosta put it -- God exists out of time -- he sees all events in ways we can't comprehend, he sees the past, present and future. He KNEW Judas would betray him, but he would not force him to do either way. That's NOT the same as saying that He pre-destined Judas to sin.

But this fails because Jesus CHOSE Judas as one of the twelve, knowing full well in advance what he would do.

True -- Jesus CHOSE Judas, Jesus did not tell Judas "Betray me"
903 posted on 01/10/2006 3:18:38 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos
I was just ready to offer you the out of saying that "if Judas had come to Christ, God would simply have selected another to betray Jesus

You are getting closer... :-)

We don't know why Judas betrayed Christ for a few coins. But God knew that he would. The important thing is, Judas could have repented afterwards, just as Adam could have repented. He could have chosen to die with Christ on the cross. He could have asked for His forgiveness. He chose not to.

God uses us for His plan, but He always offers His salvation to all. It's up to us to accept His gift of Grace, or to reject it.

However God's Plan was degined, we are offered a chance to be that thief on the right side of our Lord who repented. The Church understanding of God is that we don't know why He does things the way He does things, but He gives us a chance until the last breath to come back to Him.

The problem with Protestant theology is that repentance becomes meaningless in the elect-and-condmened-from-eternity scheme of things, as does Adam's sin and even Christ's redemption.

If we are made to sin, because we are just God's puppets-on-the-string, to repent would mean to say I am sorry for something we had no control over. And the whole idea of sin and our fall would become irrelevant. For how can you redeem something that was never yours to begin with?

912 posted on 01/10/2006 6:25:04 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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