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To: Forest Keeper
I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus.

I would agree that God knew -- He IS omniscient.

Was God really willing to save Judas at every stage of his life?

I don't know, but I believe that God WAS willing to save Judas at every stage until and maybe even after Judas rejected him. Would God have put Judas into a strait-jacket and forced him to do one thing or the other? I don't believe it -- I don't believe God forced Judas to betray the Christ. Judas did it of his own free will and was damned out of his rejection of God's grace.

Wasn't Judas born to fulfill scripture?

No, Jesus was born to fulfill scripture. Did God KNOW that Judas would reject Him? YES, an emphatic YES. Did God pick Judas to sin? I don't believe so. God KNEW.

I was just ready to offer you the out of saying that "if Judas had come to Christ, God would simply have selected another to betray Jesus".

As Kosta put it -- God exists out of time -- he sees all events in ways we can't comprehend, he sees the past, present and future. He KNEW Judas would betray him, but he would not force him to do either way. That's NOT the same as saying that He pre-destined Judas to sin.

But this fails because Jesus CHOSE Judas as one of the twelve, knowing full well in advance what he would do.

True -- Jesus CHOSE Judas, Jesus did not tell Judas "Betray me"
903 posted on 01/10/2006 3:18:38 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos
Me: I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus.

I would agree that God knew -- He IS omniscient.

Which comes first, God's plan or God's creation of the participants in His plan? If God's plan comes first then certain things must necessarily happen, independent of chance.

I don't believe it -- I don't believe God forced Judas to betray the Christ. Judas did it of his own free will and was damned out of his rejection of God's grace.

I do not mean to mock you, but I must ask about this and every other act done by humans in conformity with God's plan: "Was God just lucky then, that Judas betrayed Christ?" If Jesus isn't betrayed, then He isn't crucified and scripture is proven a fraud. My position is that it was all ordained in the beginning.

966 posted on 01/10/2006 8:05:15 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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