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To: Cronos
Me: I would say that God both knew and required that Judas would betray Jesus.

I would agree that God knew -- He IS omniscient.

Which comes first, God's plan or God's creation of the participants in His plan? If God's plan comes first then certain things must necessarily happen, independent of chance.

I don't believe it -- I don't believe God forced Judas to betray the Christ. Judas did it of his own free will and was damned out of his rejection of God's grace.

I do not mean to mock you, but I must ask about this and every other act done by humans in conformity with God's plan: "Was God just lucky then, that Judas betrayed Christ?" If Jesus isn't betrayed, then He isn't crucified and scripture is proven a fraud. My position is that it was all ordained in the beginning.

966 posted on 01/10/2006 8:05:15 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Which comes first, God's plan or God's creation of the participants in His plan? If God's plan comes first then certain things must necessarily happen, independent of chance.

Which came first -- the Chicken or the egg?
968 posted on 01/10/2006 8:19:00 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Forest Keeper
"Was God just lucky then, that Judas betrayed Christ?"

No, read post #925
969 posted on 01/10/2006 8:20:00 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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