Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
HD, that's just the point. Everyone if asked will say they want to go to heaven. Its quite another matter to so die to the self that one attains, by the power of the Holy Spirit, such a likeness to Christ that one may fulfill his created purpose of spending eternity with our Triune God. +Paul's point is that absent the uncreated energies of God imparted to us through the Holy Spirit by reason of the Incarnation, we will sin just as Adam did. But because of Christ's destruction of the bonds of death which held men since The Fall, we once again have the possibility to become "like gods".
Including all of your previous posts, let's see if I understand you. In the same thought, you say that we do not earn our own salvation, but that we are required, through our own free will, to perform certain acts and cooperate with God by loving others with a pure inner disposition.
Although there is an apparent contradiction on the surface, this is solved by declaring that all the free will choices made, the initial choice and the lifelong fulfillment of the Sacraments, etc., are not "works" in the Biblical sense because they were not done to earn money.
So, all the Biblical passages that say that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works refer to jobs for pay? Did the Jews or the early Christians believe that we could attain our salvation by doing a job for pay, such that it was necessary for the Bible to clarify this point several times?
When a person falls away from Christianity, it can also mean that that person is freely choosing to return to his former life.
When a person falls away, what happens to the indwelling Spirit? Does He stay there, defeated, or does He depart during the choice of the person to go back to the sinful life?
Since God loves us, He allows us to have what we want, even if this means eternal separation.
Since you are referring to after "initial" salvation (once we become a child of God), I would respectfully disagree. Given the countless comparisons to the parent-child relationship found throughout the Bible, would you allow your child to have what he wanted, even if you knew for sure that it would cause certain death? Is that love?
Odd: "Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will." Is it not antithetical to Evil that one turns the fallen will toward God's Grace in Christ? Such an act is not Evil thus the premise rests upon a fundamental flaw in reasoning ...
Who indeed.
That we have no way to redeem ourselves?
Are you the redeemer or God?
? That we are damned with no hope of salvation?
There is always the hope of salvation. Where do you get the idea from protestantism that anyone has no hope of salvation. We are all damned without Christ and Christ is available to all who are willing to come to him.
That being baptized in whatever Church will not save us?
Where do you get the idea that it is baptism that saves. It is by grace you are saved through faith.
How do you know that or not? Your prayingm, your actions etc. have no bearing, so you can do as you please because God has already chosen, so if you are in the "elect", you can lead a hedonistic life and yet wind up in heaven and if you aren't in the "elect", you can live like a saint and still burn?
Well if you think you can lead a hedonistic life and crucify the lord over and over, I suspect you do not have faith in Christ. And if you think you can do enough good works to earn a spot in heaven, you are on the road to hell as sure as the guy who thinks he can live a hedonistic life in Christ>
Wouldn't that be in line with your churches' teachings, Forest, Harley, Marlowe, ItsOurTimeNow ?
Speaking for Marlowe's Church, I'd have to say no.
Hi Forest, Harley: how does the idea of an "elect" square with the idea that "heaven rejoices each time a sinner is saved"? If there is an elect then there would be no sinners -- there'd be only "the elect" and "the non-elect".
Do you not believe in an "elect"?
(Mat 24:22 KJV) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:24 KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(Mat 24:31 KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mar 13:20 KJV) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(Mar 13:22 KJV) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mar 13:27 KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Luk 18:7 KJV) And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
(Rom 8:33 KJV) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
(Rom 9:11 KJV) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
(Rom 11:5 KJV) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Rom 11:7 KJV) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(Rom 11:28 KJV) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Col 3:12 KJV) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
(1Th 1:4 KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(1Ti 5:21 KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
(2Ti 2:10 KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
(Tit 1:1 KJV) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(1Pe 1:2 KJV) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1Pe 2:6 KJV) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(1Pe 5:13 KJV) The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
(2Pe 1:10 KJV) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(2Jo 1:1 KJV) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
(2Jo 1:13 KJV) The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
The term can, of course, be (mis)construed and (mis)used, implying privilege or right over others. The God of Abraham intended the Jews to spread the knowledge of Him to all nations. Rather they decided to keep it to themselves, confusing "elect" with "favorite." To the best of my knowledge, the word "favorite" does not exist in the Bible. Today, of course, we know that all those who believe in the God of Abraham are Israel, not just the Jews.
The Jews were certainly the "chosen" people -- but chosen to spread the Gospel. It was their "chosen fate" to be the bearers of the Good News. Hence our Lord says "Salvation is from the Jews." In other words, they were chosen to do good works in faith and cooperation with God.
P-Marlowe, you Protestants use the word in a way that implies "favorite." At least that's how it appears to the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. You never use the word "elect" in context of "elect to do God's work on earth" but rather "elect to be saved" as opposed to "discarded for damnation."
While one cannot earn his or her way into heaven, a life in Christ is exactly that: a life of humility, and mercy -- and sinlessness (as much a possible for us). I may be wrong, but most Protestants do not even profess any desire, let alone teaching, to live such a life, to emulate Christ. The Protestant concept od salvation is more akin in my perception, based on how you present it, to a divine tractor beam pulling you into heaven rather than becoming Christ-like.
Elect
ELECT or ELECTION: (See PREDESTINATION.)
(1) Chosen to office (Act_9:15; Joh_6:70; 1Sa_10:24). ELECTION
(2) of Israel in the Old Testament as a nation, and of the visible Christian church, to spiritual privileges (Isa_45:4; Isa_44:1; 2Jo_1:3; 1Pe_5:18).
(3) Of Israel to temporal blessings in their own land, both formerly (Deu_7:6) and hereafter (Isa_65:9-22).
(4) Of saints, individually and personally, (Mat_20:16; Joh_6:44; Act_22:14) before the foundation of the world: to adoption (Eph_1:5); salvation, not without faith and holiness, but "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," for He who chose the end chose also the means (2Th_2:13); conformity to Christ (Rom_8:29); good works (Eph_2:10); spiritual warfare (2Ti_2:4); eternal glory (Rom_9:23). He chooses not merely character's, but individuals to whom He gives the needful characteristics, faith and obedience (Act_5:31; Eph_2:8), and writes them in the book of life (Luk_10:20; Phi_4:3; Joh_6:37; Joh_6:40). Believers may know it (1Th_1:4).
Exemplified in Isaac (Gen_21:12); Abraham (Neh_9:7; Hag_2:23); the apostles (Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16; Joh_15:19); Jacob (Rom_9:12-13); Paul (Gal_1:15). God's "grace was given in Christ Jesus (to the elect) before the world began" (2Ti_1:9). Its source is God's grace, independent of any goodness foreseen in the saved (Eph_1:4-5; Rom_9:11; Rom_9:18; Rom_11:5). The analogy of God's providence in this life choosing all our circumstances and final destination, and numbering the very hairs of our heads, illustrates the same method in His moral government (compare Joh_17:24; Act_13:48; Rom_8:28-30; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_2:10; 1Pe_1:2).
The election being entirely of grace, not for our foreseen works (Rom_11:6), the glory all redounds to God. The elect are given by the Father to Jesus as the fruit of His obedience unto death (Isa_53:10), that obedience itself being a grand part of the foreordained plan. Such a truth realized fills the heart with love and gratitude to God, humbling self, and "drawing up the mind to high and heavenly things" (Church of England, Article 17). Yet men are throughout Scripture treated as responsible, capable of will and choice. Christ died sufficiently for all, efficiently for the elect (1Ti_4:10; 1Jo_2:2). The lost will lay all the blame of their perdition on themselves because "they would not come to Jesus that they might have life"; the saved will ascribe all the praise of their salvation to God alone (Rev_1:5; Mat_22:12).
I would say that your actions have nothing to do with whether you are among the elect, but that your actions do affect your reward in Heaven. As a member of the elect you will still commit sin, but you are not free to turn away from God permanently, losing salvation. God marks the elect with the Spirit and promises that He will always keep them. Since people who agree with me do not think that living a good life gets one into Heaven, it should not be surprising that even a good life led by a non-elect changes nothing.
Hello, Cronos - maybe one way to look at this is that Heaven is populated by those who are God and those who are not. It would not sound unreasonable to me that only those who are God would know who the elect are. So, God would naturally rejoice at the salvation of all the elect, even though He already knew it in advance. To all others, it would be news and so there would also be rejoicing.
I do not understand your statement that if there is an elect, there are no sinners. All of the elect were and are sinners. The elect have simply been purchased, bought and paid for, and forgiven. We are wholly owned within the family of God. The sins Christ died for include all sins of the elect, past and future.
Amen.
The answers are all in Scripture. This is how Paul anticipates your question.
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." -- Romans 6:1-11."What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Adding to 692, the new nature that God gives to the elect will not prompt that person to sin as much as they want. It is truly a new nature. The old is gone, the new has come. Some sin still happens, but not "enough" to lose salvation as per God's promise to the elect.
Yeesh. Not only are you wrong; you're rude.
having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." -- Ephesians 4:17-24"This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
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