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To: jo kus; HarleyD
Because God desires that we love as Christ did - not to obey an external law or an obligation, and certainly not to earn salvation. Here is the problem. We are required to perform certain acts - obey the Commandments. ... God desires that the inner disposition is pure - that we give of ourselves totally in love to the other.

Including all of your previous posts, let's see if I understand you. In the same thought, you say that we do not earn our own salvation, but that we are required, through our own free will, to perform certain acts and cooperate with God by loving others with a pure inner disposition.

Although there is an apparent contradiction on the surface, this is solved by declaring that all the free will choices made, the initial choice and the lifelong fulfillment of the Sacraments, etc., are not "works" in the Biblical sense because they were not done to earn money.

So, all the Biblical passages that say that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works refer to jobs for pay? Did the Jews or the early Christians believe that we could attain our salvation by doing a job for pay, such that it was necessary for the Bible to clarify this point several times?

When a person falls away from Christianity, it can also mean that that person is freely choosing to return to his former life.

When a person falls away, what happens to the indwelling Spirit? Does He stay there, defeated, or does He depart during the choice of the person to go back to the sinful life?

Since God loves us, He allows us to have what we want, even if this means eternal separation.

Since you are referring to after "initial" salvation (once we become a child of God), I would respectfully disagree. Given the countless comparisons to the parent-child relationship found throughout the Bible, would you allow your child to have what he wanted, even if you knew for sure that it would cause certain death? Is that love?

682 posted on 01/08/2006 7:36:24 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
So, all the Biblical passages that say that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works refer to jobs for pay? Did the Jews or the early Christians believe that we could attain our salvation by doing a job for pay, such that it was necessary for the Bible to clarify this point several times?

God desires that we love in the manner that He loved us. We are to love others for their own sake and because God loves them. We are not to "love" for our own selfish motives. Christ never criticizes a ritual act itself, but the motive behind the act. He tells us to purify the inner vessel first. Apparently, there were some Judaizers who tried to teach adherence to the Mosaic Law as part of the salvation formula. The Mosaic Law is not bad in of itself, but the mere performance of it without the proper inner disposition is worthless. We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone. Paul tells us that love is even greater than faith. And so love must be "God-like" - it must be a total giving of self, a dying to one's own ego. By this, we are saved.

When a person falls away, what happens to the indwelling Spirit? Does He stay there, defeated, or does He depart during the choice of the person to go back to the sinful life?

The Spirit and mortal sin cannot coexist. If a person loses sanctifying grace, the inner life of God, than that person cannot attain to heaven. He is in a state similar to the one before Baptism. He has given up his rights as an adopted son - although this may be temporary. God will continue to work to bring this person back to Him. Frankly, I don't know at what level God "remains" with us. He no longer abides in us, that is certain. However, some sort of residual effects remain, as a person who falls CAN return. Thus, God doesn't give up on us, even when we grievously falter.

God is "present" in every person by the fact that His effects are manifest in every person. We cannot remain in existence without Him keeping us alive. Thus, God's power is effective in us on the natural level. Since our body and soul are united, if God's power effects our natural body, it must also have some sort of presence or effect on our spiritual self, even if we turn away. This makes sense, considering that God is the one who initially brings us to Him during Baptism. He was working on us BEFORE we were sons of God. In the same manner, I presume that God can continue to call upon us to repent, to return to Him. But the Spirit is not present within us in the same manner as when we abide in Christ.

I would respectfully disagree. Given the countless comparisons to the parent-child relationship found throughout the Bible, would you allow your child to have what he wanted, even if you knew for sure that it would cause certain death? Is that love?

First of all, "death" in the Bible is not defined in the way you seem to be defining it. Life in the NT is defined as God's abiding presence. Death is defined as separation from this. It is NOT defined as the end of existence, however. After the first death, we will continue to exist in a spiritual form. If, because of our choices on earth, do not desire "Life" - Christ, then God gives us what we want, "Death" - separation from Him. A "life" without God is considered death, but not an end of existence. Thus, your analogy fails. Those of us who have older children who have become adults can understand this better, I think. Sometimes, our children will make really dumb choices, choices that are not in their best interest. They will regret them for the rest of their lives. We know it before they do it. Yet, we respect their decision and allow them to make the choice (which doesn't mean that we don't try and try to convince them otherwise!). I believe that this is a closer analogy to what God does with us. He allows us to make a decision. Life with Him or "life" without Him. Yes, this is love. If a person would be happier WITHOUT God's presence, then love dictates that God allows that person to have his way. Naturally, hell will be the place where God's presence is not manifest.

Regards

720 posted on 01/09/2006 4:47:26 AM PST by jo kus
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