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To: Forest Keeper
So, all the Biblical passages that say that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works refer to jobs for pay? Did the Jews or the early Christians believe that we could attain our salvation by doing a job for pay, such that it was necessary for the Bible to clarify this point several times?

God desires that we love in the manner that He loved us. We are to love others for their own sake and because God loves them. We are not to "love" for our own selfish motives. Christ never criticizes a ritual act itself, but the motive behind the act. He tells us to purify the inner vessel first. Apparently, there were some Judaizers who tried to teach adherence to the Mosaic Law as part of the salvation formula. The Mosaic Law is not bad in of itself, but the mere performance of it without the proper inner disposition is worthless. We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone. Paul tells us that love is even greater than faith. And so love must be "God-like" - it must be a total giving of self, a dying to one's own ego. By this, we are saved.

When a person falls away, what happens to the indwelling Spirit? Does He stay there, defeated, or does He depart during the choice of the person to go back to the sinful life?

The Spirit and mortal sin cannot coexist. If a person loses sanctifying grace, the inner life of God, than that person cannot attain to heaven. He is in a state similar to the one before Baptism. He has given up his rights as an adopted son - although this may be temporary. God will continue to work to bring this person back to Him. Frankly, I don't know at what level God "remains" with us. He no longer abides in us, that is certain. However, some sort of residual effects remain, as a person who falls CAN return. Thus, God doesn't give up on us, even when we grievously falter.

God is "present" in every person by the fact that His effects are manifest in every person. We cannot remain in existence without Him keeping us alive. Thus, God's power is effective in us on the natural level. Since our body and soul are united, if God's power effects our natural body, it must also have some sort of presence or effect on our spiritual self, even if we turn away. This makes sense, considering that God is the one who initially brings us to Him during Baptism. He was working on us BEFORE we were sons of God. In the same manner, I presume that God can continue to call upon us to repent, to return to Him. But the Spirit is not present within us in the same manner as when we abide in Christ.

I would respectfully disagree. Given the countless comparisons to the parent-child relationship found throughout the Bible, would you allow your child to have what he wanted, even if you knew for sure that it would cause certain death? Is that love?

First of all, "death" in the Bible is not defined in the way you seem to be defining it. Life in the NT is defined as God's abiding presence. Death is defined as separation from this. It is NOT defined as the end of existence, however. After the first death, we will continue to exist in a spiritual form. If, because of our choices on earth, do not desire "Life" - Christ, then God gives us what we want, "Death" - separation from Him. A "life" without God is considered death, but not an end of existence. Thus, your analogy fails. Those of us who have older children who have become adults can understand this better, I think. Sometimes, our children will make really dumb choices, choices that are not in their best interest. They will regret them for the rest of their lives. We know it before they do it. Yet, we respect their decision and allow them to make the choice (which doesn't mean that we don't try and try to convince them otherwise!). I believe that this is a closer analogy to what God does with us. He allows us to make a decision. Life with Him or "life" without Him. Yes, this is love. If a person would be happier WITHOUT God's presence, then love dictates that God allows that person to have his way. Naturally, hell will be the place where God's presence is not manifest.

Regards

720 posted on 01/09/2006 4:47:26 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Paul tells us that love is even greater than faith. And so love must be "God-like" - it must be a total giving of self, a dying to one's own ego. By this, we are saved.

I think I do understand your idea of a pure inner disposition, and the need for love not to come from a selfish source. I still do not understand the works-for-pay idea as a distinction that is used to explain that all the deeds done by Catholics to attain salvation do not count as works. Even regarding love, I know from personal experience that sometimes love can be real work. :)

Since "works" are specifically mentioned several times as not counting toward salvation, I reason that this must be teaching against some idea held by some at the time. I am unaware of any commandment or early Christian belief that we are to work for pay to attain salvation. OTOH, if we take a plain-meaning definition of the word, such as "the production of effort toward a desired goal", then that would teach against a common belief of the time, that we are saved under law. This makes more sense to me.

The Spirit and mortal sin cannot coexist. ... He has given up his rights as an adopted son - although this may be temporary. God will continue to work to bring this person back to Him.

If mortal sin equals "disqualifying" sin, then I agree with you on that part. You have said that God wishes all of us to be saved, and that God respects our choices even if they eternally doom us.

So there is a great clash between the will of God and the will of man. Who will win? You seem to say "win some lose some". Sometimes God "wins" and gets what He wants, and sometimes man "wins" (double quotes). I just see God as being so much stronger than that. I would say that God always gets what He wants because He is God. That's why I think that God does not forsake the elect, even if some of them temporarily stray.

First of all, "death" in the Bible is not defined in the way you seem to be defining it.

I've understood for some time the difference between physical and spiritual death. I know that we exist forever regardless of our destination. I still think my analogy holds.

You brought up the example of your influence with an older child. I think the analogy fails there because once the child is grown, you do not have the power to force decisions on him. I assumed the relationship between a parent and minor child because the parent does have power. (Of course God always has full power.)

If my fifteen-year-old wanted to join a cult, then I would forbid him out of my love for him. I would use whatever force was necessary. I would do this in my complete and secure knowledge that I know what is best in this matter. I am comparing this to what God does for the elect. Once saved, God will not allow His elect to fall away enough to forfeit salvation. He will use whatever force is necessary, and this is done on His authority of knowing what is best and in accordance with His divine plan.

I respectfully disagree that God sees us as adult children. I'm pretty sure that He sees us as young children (dumb as sheep) who have no idea what is best for them on anything. :)

778 posted on 01/09/2006 11:25:46 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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