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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus On the Freedom of the Will

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Luther's Arguments Against Erasmus

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The Battle of the Biblical Texts

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Showing the absurdity of what Erasmus says, Luther says that this view means that God shows mercy when He sends Israel into captivity because then they are invited to repent; but when Israel is brought back from captivity, He hardens them by giving them the opportunity of hardening in His longsuffering. This is "topsy-turvy."

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

In his consideration of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, Erasmus denies that this passage speaks of predestination. Erasmus says God does not hate anybody from eternity. But God's wrath and fury against sin are revealed on Esau because He knows the sins he will commit. In this connection, when Romans 9 speaks of God as the potter making a vessel of honor and dishonor, Erasmus says that God does this because of their belief and unbelief. Erasmus is trying to deny the necessity of the fulfillment of God's decree in order to support the freedom of the will.

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

The Main Issues and Implications of Each View

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

According to Luther, Erasmus does not succeed in moving closer to the Augustinian position. Instead, he cheapens the purchase of God's grace. Luther says:

The Pelagians base salvation upon works; men work for their own righteousness. But Erasmus has cheapened the price which must be paid for salvation. Because only a small work of man is needed to merit salvation, God is not so great and mighty. Man only needs to choose God and choose the good. God's character is tarnished with the teaching of Erasmus. This semi-Pelagianism is worse than Pelagianism, for little is required to earn salvation. As Packer and Johnston say, "that is to belittle salvation and to insult God."

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

The Importance of This Controversy Today

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bondageofthewill; catholic; christalone; erasmus; faithalone; gracealone; luther; martinluther; protestant; reformation; savedbygracealone; scripturealone; solascriptura; thegoodnews
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
I hate to butt into this conversation but I would suggest that Job, who God called His "servant" was indeed blameless before God

You are more than welcome to join any of my threads and I am sure FK feels the same, HD. Thank you for doing so.

What you said is somewhat opposite from FK's assertion in #4895 that +Paul must mean that no one is perfect in the eyes of God, or blue-duncan's #4743 statement that what the Old Testament makes plain is that we have all sinned and none are righteous before God without the shedding of blood for sin.

Be it as it may, your position needs to be harmonized with +Paul's statement that none "is righteous, not one" in Rom 3;10, as much as FK's and blue-duncan's positions need to be harmonized with Job 1:1 that Job was "a perfect man" (KJV) or, more exactly, "true, blameless, righteous, and godly, abstaining from everything evil." (Septuagint). Both are assertions made in Scripture and they are mutually exclusive.

4,921 posted on 04/21/2006 2:51:40 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
jo kus to FK: There is not a "day 1 - God decides what He will do - day 2 - God does it"

It's more like God doesn't think "What should I do on Day 2?" Everything that will happen has happened. God's Plan is finished, and has been from all eternity. To us it is still occurring.

It's as if He has seen a movie and knows everything that happened in it. And we are watching it for the first time. The ending is set. But to us, while we are watching the movie it is a "developing" story and it matters not whether we talk, walk or sleep in the movie -- what we do will only affect how we experience it and what we get out of it, not how it will end. Our disinterest and lack of attention, our free behavior during the movie will only affect us, personally, but not the outcome.

Those who participated in watching it will benefit from its educational, entertainment, emotional and any other value, but those who didn't will get nothing out of it; they would have wasted their opportunity and will be clueless.

4,922 posted on 04/21/2006 3:01:56 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; HarleyD
What you are really questioning is whether perfect also means sinless, knowing that Job confessed that he is not without sin. Yet Septuagint (LXX), the Greek-language OT predating Christ says that Job was "true, blameless, righteous, and godly, abstaining from everything evil."

Yes, I must question it because I believe every word in the Bible is true. When there are apparent contradictions there must be an explanation. The alternative is that the Bible isn't true. Whether the word is "blameless", "righteous", "godly", or "perfect", it cannot mean "sinless" in this context. Harley's explanation makes "perfect" sense to me. :) God sees some of us as blameless or righteous, but that doesn't mean we do not sin. The beauty of it is that this idea is backed up by scripture.

In all this, the focus becomes on the verse, word by word, and not the spiritual message behind the story -- which is: never blame God for your misfortunes.

I don't see why there cannot be focus on both. Yes, the message is very important AND so are the words. I'm a living example because my chosen text is the NIV, which goes idea for idea rather than word for word.

However, not only does the OT mention the righteous, but so does our Lord Jesus Christ, so whence came those, if according to +Paul, none is righteous?

Yes, this fits in with what Harley was saying. Many are called righteous in the Bible. Some examples are Noah, Joseph, Simeon, Abel, Zechariah, Lot, Abraham, Paul, Silas and Timothy. So, who is Paul talking about in Rom. 3:10? Well, he obviously can't be talking about any of the people listed, or anyone else who is righteous in God's eyes. But Paul does say "none", implying that all are unrighteous. Is that ever true? Yes, that is true of everyone before salvation. This idea also matches what Paul says 13 verses later, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". If that statement was meant to convey a permanent condition, then no one goes to heaven. He was again speaking of everyone before salvation. Not that we don't sin after salvation, but that a truly regenerated heart no longer falls short.

Rom. 3:21-24 : 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (emphasis added)

4,923 posted on 04/21/2006 4:02:35 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
What you said is somewhat opposite from FK's assertion in #4895 that +Paul must mean that no one is perfect in the eyes of God, or blue-duncan's #4743 statement that what the Old Testament makes plain is that we have all sinned and none are righteous before God without the shedding of blood for sin.

Not at all. I fully agree with FK and blue-duncan's assertions. They are absolutely correct. We ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Scripture is very plain and states this several times.

I believe the problem in your understanding is in the way the Orthodox and Catholics interpret righteousness (infused) and the way Protestants interprets it (imputed). Whereas you feel that you must continuously follow the sacraments to gather more of God's grace (infusion), Protestants believe God's grace is imputed to man. We were unrighteous. We were made righteous by our faith. And, through God's will alone we will always be righteous forevermore in God's eyes.

Consequently you are viewing Job as a very nice guy who kept his nose clean before God. I would disagree with this interpretation. Job was like everyone else and admit it. God doesn't see Job's sin just like He doesn't see ours. Job's righteousness was imputed to him.

When I was pointing out Job righteousness, God clearly called Job, His "servant" (v1:8); a special designation God uses for believers. Not because of anything that Job could do but simply because of his faith-the faith that God had given him.

4,924 posted on 04/21/2006 5:16:38 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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To: kosta50; jo kus
... although -- paradoxically -- both sides of the Church believe Blessed Theotokos to be have been immaculate all her life, and venerate her as the Saint above all Saints.

Yes, and even though I have some idea of how close Orthodoxy and Catholicism are, I find it interesting that on some issues I find myself in more agreement with one, and on others the other.

4,925 posted on 04/21/2006 6:33:24 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Since the crucifixion happened, I conclude that it was God's will that it happen. That would also entail that it was not an accident. Therefore, I would say that God "ordained" that the crucifixion happen.

Why would you say that the Crucifixion HAD to happen? What makes you so sure that such was “necessary” or ordained from God in that He directly caused it? It does not follow that because “it happened”, that God ORDAINED it – otherwise, you are saying that God ordains sin, as well. If it happens, then God must have willed sin into existence – according to this logic. This will not do. Man is the cause of evil, not God. For man to commit evil, he must have a free will. This free will does NOT impede God! He foresees everything that man would do before man even existed. Whatever was in God’s “mind”, His plan, takes into account man’s actions. If man has free will, I would say that God foresaw what man would do. God could have chosen any manner of saving us. Obviously, He foresaw what man would do to His premier messenger (as they did with the prophets). Fortunately, God chose to show His love in the greatest possible manner.

Now, does this mean that God was the "author" of those sins? I would say "No".

You’ll have to explain how God is not the author of sin IF God ordains EVERYTHING that happens…You can’t have it both ways. Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God do something! If I watch a pre-televised football game and know the score, does it mean that I caused the outcome?

God can choose to withdraw any or all amount of unmerited grace at any time because He has no duty to leave us with grace. If that happens, the person is going to sin. This is not the fault of God, although God did "ordain" the sin.

God initiates His love to mankind. IF man responds in kind, God binds Himself (since God is just) to grant graces for man to further his contact with God. This is called the “righteousness” of God. We utterly rely on it after our death. God certainly can and does “turn away” from man when they have rebuffed His initiatives. However, God is always the first cause of grace. No one can merit the first grace – as St. Augustine said. Thus, God is not “ordaining” anything in the case of sin. Just as Paul says in Romans 1, He leaves man to his own wicked ways. This, Paul says, is the wrath of God – not fire and brimstone – but leaving us in our wickedness – which eventually leads us to total separation from our destiny and final created end.

because God is outside of time He does not have foreknowledge of His own actions, but He does have full and complete "regular" knowledge of every action ever taken. Because man operates within time, God does have foreknowledge of every action every man will ever take. If that's right, I have no problem looking at it this way. Do you make this distinction for the sake of being correct (which is fine), or does it affect the theology of the topics we have been discussing?

It does affect the theology that we are discussing – because then we can say that God “simultaneously” acts. There is no “foreknowledge” of His own actions – it is ONE PRESENT NOW. Personally, I am at a loss to try to understand HOW God does NOT see our merits or demerits in time – since they all (good and bad that we do) appear to Him in that one moment of God, eternity. How does God’s “vision” stop in the present for mankind and not proceed into the future simultaneously? If someone can explain that, I’d appreciate that. Of course, this doesn’t make me a Thomist or an Augustinian! I have purchased a few heavy theology books on this subject, so I’ll have to read them and see if this is clarified. This is certainly a mystical topic.

Regards

4,926 posted on 04/21/2006 6:33:58 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: kosta50
It's as if He has seen a movie and knows everything that happened in it. And we are watching it for the first time. The ending is set. But to us, while we are watching the movie it is a "developing" story and it matters not whether we talk, walk or sleep in the movie -- what we do will only affect how we experience it and what we get out of it, not how it will end. Our disinterest and lack of attention, our free behavior during the movie will only affect us, personally, but not the outcome. Those who participated in watching it will benefit from its educational, entertainment, emotional and any other value, but those who didn't will get nothing out of it; they would have wasted their opportunity and will be clueless.

Good analogy. I have sometimes heard that the Eucharist is a "replay" of what is happening at Calvary, but without the blood. What is great is that we can "rewind" and "replay" it to receive the benefits of participating in this act that happened in history but transcends history (being that the prime participant was/is God)

Regards

4,927 posted on 04/21/2006 6:36:56 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex
I believe the problem in your understanding is in the way the Orthodox and Catholics interpret righteousness (infused) and the way Protestants interprets it (imputed). Whereas you feel that you must continuously follow the sacraments to gather more of God's grace (infusion), Protestants believe God's grace is imputed to man. We were unrighteous. We were made righteous by our faith. And, through God's will alone we will always be righteous forevermore in God's eyes.

We (Catholics and Orthodox) believe that man is transformed, not just given a legal status. God's Word is efficacious, He doesn't need to pretend we are righteous. Of course, this doesn't mean we are perfect, but in our Father's eyes, He, like any father, is looking at us through the eyes of love. We don't need to be perfect - that's for those trying to earn their way to heaven through the Law.

We don't go and participate in the Sacraments because it is the only manner of receiving grace. It is God's actions TODAY in the age of the Church. Just as God parted the Red Sea and Christ rose from the dead in history, God continues to act through the Sacraments of the Church - which inevitably foreshadow what will happen in heaven. Thus, through the sacraments, we experience God here and now...TODAY! He frees us from sin, He cleanses us, He feeds us spiritually. It is Christ who continues to come to us through visible forms called sacraments.

Regards

4,928 posted on 04/21/2006 6:42:01 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus

I want to thank you HD and FK on your explanations. I think you have made some very valuable points. No matter how much I would like to continue, it is our Great and Holy Friday and I just came back from the church. In fact, I have been in church every day this week (except the Lazarus Sunday because I worked). Up to now, I could think of something to say, but after tonight until after the Resurrection Sunday I will ask you to excuse me. I will keep all of you in my prayers. May God bless you all.


4,929 posted on 04/21/2006 6:52:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50
I hate to butt into this conversation but I would suggest that Job, who God called His "servant" was indeed blameless before God. ...

Yes, as Kosta said, please add to any conversation any time. I need all the help and education I can get. :)

4,930 posted on 04/21/2006 8:10:01 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50; jo kus
It's as if He has seen a movie and knows everything that happened in it. And we are watching it for the first time. The ending is set. ... Our disinterest and lack of attention, our free behavior during the movie will only affect us, personally, but not the outcome.

I think everything in the whole paragraph sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps the only tweak I would give it is that God gives away a spoiler, but only some of us peek. :)

4,931 posted on 04/21/2006 10:13:19 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Have you ever met a Calvinist who wasn't an elect?


4,932 posted on 04/21/2006 10:33:14 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: jo kus; HarleyD
Why would you say that the Crucifixion HAD to happen? What makes you so sure that such was “necessary” or ordained from God in that He directly caused it? It does not follow that because “it happened”, that God ORDAINED it – otherwise, you are saying that God ordains sin, as well. If it happens, then God must have willed sin into existence – according to this logic. This will not do. ... God could have chosen any manner of saving us.

God is either in utter and complete control over His creation or He is not. We both agree that for whatever reason, God's ordering of the universe results in some humans going to heaven and some going to hell. We also agree that our God is a God of justice, and that a sinful person is unfit for heaven. We further also agree that we humans cannot atone for our sins on our own.

So what's a good, just, and loving God supposed to do to ensure that His elect will wind up in heaven with Him? Well, since I do believe that God is utterly and fully in control, and knowing that we could not pay for our sins, I think that He decided to pay for those sins Himself, using the only means that would also satisfy His justice. I think that if God's justice would have been satisfied by Jesus simply saying a prayer for us, then that's what would have happened. IOW, I don't think Christ went through the whole ordeal for no reason, except that it was absolutely necessary to save us. What other reason could there be for Him to go through the worst thing we could imagine?

And yes, I am saying that God not only ordains that sin happen, but also that it was His will that sin exist on this earth. For His own reasons, this was how He ordered the planet. To say otherwise is to say that the world is not as God willed, that there is a power greater than His, either singular or collective, that has ordered the world as it is. I believe God is sovereign and in full control, and I cannot make sense of any idea that God's sovereignty is satisfied by God partially releasing His control to humans. You will say that we have help from God and we do nothing on our own. But who is in control? If the independent decisions of man determine things like whether the crucifixion ever would have happened, then man is in control.

Man is the cause of evil, not God. For man to commit evil, he must have a free will. This free will does NOT impede God! He foresees everything that man would do before man even existed. Whatever was in God’s “mind”, His plan, takes into account man’s actions. If man has free will, I would say that God foresaw what man would do. God could have chosen any manner of saving us. Obviously, He foresaw what man would do to His premier messenger (as they did with the prophets). Fortunately, God chose to show His love in the greatest possible manner.

I would agree that evil deeds are authored by both men and satan, and that God is never to blame. It's funny, Harley has recently posted that we Calvinists believe that man has free will, and I have agreed with everything that he has said, in the context that he has said it. I.e., that we have free will once God has set us free.

Another context I'm sure Harley would agree with is that man's free will cannot trump or direct God's will. That's what causes me some concern with a few of your statements. I recognize that you said that man's free will does not impede God, but then you also say that God's plan takes into account man's actions. You further say that God foresaw what we would do to Christ, but, in effect, fortunately, God loved us anyway.

Let's imagine two things. First, that God did not take into account our decisions in the making of His plan. Second, that God did. Wouldn't you agree that these would be two mutually exclusive plans, i.e., that both cannot possibly be true? We don't make decisions like God does, so they have to be different, right? That's why I keep hopping on my hobby horse that God isn't dependent on man, even partially, for His plan. If God uses our decisions, THEN NECESSARILY, He planned differently than He otherwise would have.

You’ll have to explain how God is not the author of sin IF God ordains EVERYTHING that happens…You can’t have it both ways.

I DID EXPLAIN! :) Or, at least I tried to in my original post. We both agree that God created satan, that satan is evil, but God is not the author of evil, right? God has no duty to the universe to stop satan's evil, even though He could stop it at any time with a snap of His fingers. It is the same here. In God's plan He withholds or withdraws grace from some and then they are left only to their sin nature, meaning they will sin. God ordained that, but He did not author the sin itself. That was done by man, even if he had no independent ability to avoid it.

I use the word "author" here equally with a word like "commit". That's why I stay away from words like "cause" in this context because that word could be taken either way. For example, I would call God setting the conditions for a particular sin to happen "ordaining" (God withdraws grace). However, the actual commission of the sin is still on the actor, the author.

Perhaps a human example would be a classic "entrapment" scenario, whereby an undercover cop poses as a bum in the alley and leaves a $50 bill laying on his chest. He appears to be sleeping. When someone comes along and tries to steal it, who "caused" the crime? In this loose analogy, the cop was "ordaining", but the thief was the author of the sin (evil). Of course God's powers erase all doubt of the outcome.

Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God do something! If I watch a pre-televised football game and know the score, does it mean that I caused the outcome?

But you tell me that God takes into account man's actions. If God actually plans differently than He otherwise would have, because of man, then that necessitates a change based on foreknowledge. This foreknowledge of man necessitates that God do something He would not have done but for the foreknowledge. ... As for the football game, YES, you would have caused the outcome of the game by knowing the score, IF you made the game, AND you owned the game, AND you made and owned all the players of the game, AND YOU WERE IN ABSOLUTE AND FULL CONTROL OF EVERY ASPECT OF THAT GAME from before the sport itself was even invented. :)

God certainly can and does “turn away” from man when they have rebuffed His initiatives. However, God is always the first cause of grace. No one can merit the first grace – as St. Augustine said. Thus, God is not “ordaining” anything in the case of sin. Just as Paul says in Romans 1, He leaves man to his own wicked ways. This, Paul says, is the wrath of God ...

Yes, God is always the first cause of all grace. IMO, He's also the only cause of all grace. But I don't see how it follows that this means that God can't/won't ordain that sin happen. When God withdraws or withholds, He knows there is only one result that is possible. Left to our own devices, there is only wickedness. God uses, or "ordains" that wickedness, with full knowledge of the result. If God ALWAYS just leaves us alone when we rebel, as you seem to suggest in saying there is no connection to God's ordaining, then how do you explain that all the evil prophesied in the Bible just happened to come true? If I'm reading you right, then this supports my concern from earlier, that you believe that God looked down the corridor, saw whatever evil man decided to commit, and then fashioned history around that. That is not the kind of free will I believe in.

How about this: my side says that God ordains everything, you disagree. Does God ordain anything? How are all the things that are not ordained by God explained? Random chance in the form of free will? Do you believe that God is in full control, and if so, how could He be, in a divine sense, if He allows others to control the outcome of events?

When I think of God being in control, in a divine sense, I think of every prayer being heard, every hair being counted, every bird being cared for, etc. The idea that God wished to delegate some of that control, on purpose, to creatures as sinful as us makes me think He really isn't in control. You suggested that you didn't think that the crucifixion had to happen, which implies that it was man who made it happen, man was in control. My opinion is that if God really has stayed out of it to the degree I "think" you are suggesting, then we, as a species, never would have lasted as long as we have. Without God being in full control, man would have destroyed himself in his own wickedness.

4,933 posted on 04/22/2006 2:38:32 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus

It was Palm Sunday, of course. See, I am not thinking...


4,934 posted on 04/22/2006 4:27:57 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: D-fendr; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; AlbionGirl; qua; blue-duncan
Have you ever met a Calvinist who wasn't an elect?

I haven't met that many Calvinists. But I have been graced by marrying one and raising a couple of them, and knowing a few of them in person in my Presbyterian church.

I have, however, by the grace of God, met many of them on-line and been enriched by their witness to and knowledge of God and Scripture.

As to your question, no one but God knows the names of the elect. Yet we're told that men are known by their fruits, so in that case, I think I've known some of God's elect. And surprise, they're not all Calvinists. But one day, by the grace of God, I think they will be. 8~)

Additionally, I have His promise that because I have received Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, I, too, am among the elect. That doesn't mean I won't continue to stumble and sin for every day of my life. But it does mean He will never lose hold of me, and that He will inevitably lead me home because Christ has already paid the price for my sins in total. I have been redeemed.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

An excellent article is found here: (though it addresses the errors of some fundamentalists, it is the same error as held by all those who deny monergistic salvation)

LIMITED ATONEMENT by Dr. Greg Bahnsen

And, of course, there is Spurgeon's great paraphrasing of Owen's masterful logic...

"The Arminians say, 'Christ died for all men.' Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?' and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

While we're at it, let's read Owen's short and perfect formulation:

"God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for, either all the sins of all men, or all the sins of some men, or some sins of all men. If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved....If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world. If the first, why then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins? You will say, "Because of their unbelief; they will not believe." But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not? If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not. If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death? If he did not, then did he not die for all their Sins."

Another excellent essay is found here:

WAS ANYONE SAVED AT THE CROSS by James White

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifice, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." -- Hebrews 10:10-14

Are you among God's elect, D-fendr? Did Christ pay the penalty in full for all your sins? Have you been redeemed?

4,935 posted on 04/22/2006 11:00:54 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Are you among God's elect, D-fendr? Did Christ pay the penalty in full for all your sins? Have you been redeemed?

As someone wise told me recently, "no one but God knows the names of the elect."

I, too, am among the elect.

This seems to contradict my wise advisor.

He will never lose hold of me, and that He will inevitably lead me home because Christ has already paid the price for my sins in total. I have been redeemed.

You seem to have God in a box in your pocket. You're in and there's nothing He can do about it - or nothing He will do about it, which is essentially the same thing.

This thinking also gets too quickly into "My theology gives me assurance of Heaven, does yours?" We see the evangelist's appeal, "do you know you're going to heaven?" and if not, well here's how you can.

Speaking only for myself, I think it is harmful to think in terms of my "reward." Would we follow Christ if we were not rewarded for it?

Perhaps this thinking is good for others, but I can't understand it. Which is why I asked you. I've never run across someone talking about assured salvation who didn't think their's was assured. So, it becomes meaningless to me.

thanks for your reply.

4,936 posted on 04/22/2006 12:03:32 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg
"As someone wise told me recently, "no one but God knows the names of the elect."

You might not know with confidence if anyone else is elect but you can know with surety if you are.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Paul says as far as our security that nothing and no one can separate us from God,

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I, too, am among the elect, by His grace.
4,937 posted on 04/22/2006 12:43:46 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
Thanks for your reply.

Have you ever known a Calvinist who wasn't sure s/he was an elect?

4,938 posted on 04/22/2006 1:19:18 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg

"Have you ever known a Calvinist who wasn't sure s/he was an elect?"

One who claims to be a Calvinist is only stating the system through which they organized the truths of the scriptures; one of which is salvation by grace through faith alone. Because they have received that salvation the scriptures say they are part of the elect, so to answer your question, no, I have not met a true Calvinist who was not a believer and they believed their salvation flowed from God's sovereign election.


4,939 posted on 04/22/2006 1:36:57 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Me either. That's why it becomes a meaningless point for me.

If it's good for them, then I have not problem. I wonder though what its effect would be if someone loves God, would it matter?

If you found out you were not an elect, would you still love Christ?


4,940 posted on 04/22/2006 1:51:26 PM PDT by D-fendr
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