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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
What you said is somewhat opposite from FK's assertion in #4895 that +Paul must mean that no one is perfect in the eyes of God, or blue-duncan's #4743 statement that what the Old Testament makes plain is that we have all sinned and none are righteous before God without the shedding of blood for sin.

Not at all. I fully agree with FK and blue-duncan's assertions. They are absolutely correct. We ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Scripture is very plain and states this several times.

I believe the problem in your understanding is in the way the Orthodox and Catholics interpret righteousness (infused) and the way Protestants interprets it (imputed). Whereas you feel that you must continuously follow the sacraments to gather more of God's grace (infusion), Protestants believe God's grace is imputed to man. We were unrighteous. We were made righteous by our faith. And, through God's will alone we will always be righteous forevermore in God's eyes.

Consequently you are viewing Job as a very nice guy who kept his nose clean before God. I would disagree with this interpretation. Job was like everyone else and admit it. God doesn't see Job's sin just like He doesn't see ours. Job's righteousness was imputed to him.

When I was pointing out Job righteousness, God clearly called Job, His "servant" (v1:8); a special designation God uses for believers. Not because of anything that Job could do but simply because of his faith-the faith that God had given him.

4,924 posted on 04/21/2006 5:16:38 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near Himself." Num 16:5)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex
I believe the problem in your understanding is in the way the Orthodox and Catholics interpret righteousness (infused) and the way Protestants interprets it (imputed). Whereas you feel that you must continuously follow the sacraments to gather more of God's grace (infusion), Protestants believe God's grace is imputed to man. We were unrighteous. We were made righteous by our faith. And, through God's will alone we will always be righteous forevermore in God's eyes.

We (Catholics and Orthodox) believe that man is transformed, not just given a legal status. God's Word is efficacious, He doesn't need to pretend we are righteous. Of course, this doesn't mean we are perfect, but in our Father's eyes, He, like any father, is looking at us through the eyes of love. We don't need to be perfect - that's for those trying to earn their way to heaven through the Law.

We don't go and participate in the Sacraments because it is the only manner of receiving grace. It is God's actions TODAY in the age of the Church. Just as God parted the Red Sea and Christ rose from the dead in history, God continues to act through the Sacraments of the Church - which inevitably foreshadow what will happen in heaven. Thus, through the sacraments, we experience God here and now...TODAY! He frees us from sin, He cleanses us, He feeds us spiritually. It is Christ who continues to come to us through visible forms called sacraments.

Regards

4,928 posted on 04/21/2006 6:42:01 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus

I want to thank you HD and FK on your explanations. I think you have made some very valuable points. No matter how much I would like to continue, it is our Great and Holy Friday and I just came back from the church. In fact, I have been in church every day this week (except the Lazarus Sunday because I worked). Up to now, I could think of something to say, but after tonight until after the Resurrection Sunday I will ask you to excuse me. I will keep all of you in my prayers. May God bless you all.


4,929 posted on 04/21/2006 6:52:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
Whereas you feel that you must continuously follow the sacraments to gather more of God's grace (infusion), Protestants believe God's grace is imputed to man

It's not "following" the sacraments but receiving them. However, you do point an interesting "problem" that can be observed in sacramental Apostolic churches.

Reception of sacraments is usually preceded by proper preparation. Generally, in the Orthodox tradition, no confession without a 12-hour fast, and no Eucharist without a proper confession. This, of course, has its good reasons, but is not followed.

Today was a very good example of it: this morning was a Holy Saturday liturgy with Eucharist. Those who received it in the early afternoon (say about 2 PM) supposedly fasted at least 12 hours. The service preceding the Eucharist took almost three hours -- standing! For anyone who has not eaten anything for such a long time, this is a trying thing to do.

Tonight at 11 PM began the Paschal service and lasted until about 2:30 AM. I saw a lot of the same people receive the Eucharist again, 12 hours after the first one! In order for them to be "properly prepared" as the priest reminds them, they would have not had anything to eat for more than 24 hours! Well, if so, they didn't look it or act it. They stood through the whole service.

So, barring those exemplary exceptional people who can go without food or drink for 24 hours and stand through nearly six hours of liturgy in one day, I would say that an awful lot of people received the Eucharistic Mystery wrongly, which is on their conscience.

But they did it, obviously, for selfish reasons to "stack up" mysteries (sacraments). Certainly one sacrament today is enough grace not to warrant asking for "seconds."

The problem is that people seek faith either in the Church or in the Bible. Whether God's grace is infused or imputed is irrelevant -- we cling on to something that will provide us with grace. But, technically speaking, if faith is something given to us by God, then it exists independently from the Church or the Bible.

5,003 posted on 04/23/2006 12:26:16 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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