God is either in utter and complete control over His creation or He is not. We both agree that for whatever reason, God's ordering of the universe results in some humans going to heaven and some going to hell. We also agree that our God is a God of justice, and that a sinful person is unfit for heaven. We further also agree that we humans cannot atone for our sins on our own.
So what's a good, just, and loving God supposed to do to ensure that His elect will wind up in heaven with Him? Well, since I do believe that God is utterly and fully in control, and knowing that we could not pay for our sins, I think that He decided to pay for those sins Himself, using the only means that would also satisfy His justice. I think that if God's justice would have been satisfied by Jesus simply saying a prayer for us, then that's what would have happened. IOW, I don't think Christ went through the whole ordeal for no reason, except that it was absolutely necessary to save us. What other reason could there be for Him to go through the worst thing we could imagine?
And yes, I am saying that God not only ordains that sin happen, but also that it was His will that sin exist on this earth. For His own reasons, this was how He ordered the planet. To say otherwise is to say that the world is not as God willed, that there is a power greater than His, either singular or collective, that has ordered the world as it is. I believe God is sovereign and in full control, and I cannot make sense of any idea that God's sovereignty is satisfied by God partially releasing His control to humans. You will say that we have help from God and we do nothing on our own. But who is in control? If the independent decisions of man determine things like whether the crucifixion ever would have happened, then man is in control.
Man is the cause of evil, not God. For man to commit evil, he must have a free will. This free will does NOT impede God! He foresees everything that man would do before man even existed. Whatever was in God’s “mind”, His plan, takes into account man’s actions. If man has free will, I would say that God foresaw what man would do. God could have chosen any manner of saving us. Obviously, He foresaw what man would do to His premier messenger (as they did with the prophets). Fortunately, God chose to show His love in the greatest possible manner.
I would agree that evil deeds are authored by both men and satan, and that God is never to blame. It's funny, Harley has recently posted that we Calvinists believe that man has free will, and I have agreed with everything that he has said, in the context that he has said it. I.e., that we have free will once God has set us free.
Another context I'm sure Harley would agree with is that man's free will cannot trump or direct God's will. That's what causes me some concern with a few of your statements. I recognize that you said that man's free will does not impede God, but then you also say that God's plan takes into account man's actions. You further say that God foresaw what we would do to Christ, but, in effect, fortunately, God loved us anyway.
Let's imagine two things. First, that God did not take into account our decisions in the making of His plan. Second, that God did. Wouldn't you agree that these would be two mutually exclusive plans, i.e., that both cannot possibly be true? We don't make decisions like God does, so they have to be different, right? That's why I keep hopping on my hobby horse that God isn't dependent on man, even partially, for His plan. If God uses our decisions, THEN NECESSARILY, He planned differently than He otherwise would have.
You’ll have to explain how God is not the author of sin IF God ordains EVERYTHING that happens…You can’t have it both ways.
I DID EXPLAIN! :) Or, at least I tried to in my original post. We both agree that God created satan, that satan is evil, but God is not the author of evil, right? God has no duty to the universe to stop satan's evil, even though He could stop it at any time with a snap of His fingers. It is the same here. In God's plan He withholds or withdraws grace from some and then they are left only to their sin nature, meaning they will sin. God ordained that, but He did not author the sin itself. That was done by man, even if he had no independent ability to avoid it.
I use the word "author" here equally with a word like "commit". That's why I stay away from words like "cause" in this context because that word could be taken either way. For example, I would call God setting the conditions for a particular sin to happen "ordaining" (God withdraws grace). However, the actual commission of the sin is still on the actor, the author.
Perhaps a human example would be a classic "entrapment" scenario, whereby an undercover cop poses as a bum in the alley and leaves a $50 bill laying on his chest. He appears to be sleeping. When someone comes along and tries to steal it, who "caused" the crime? In this loose analogy, the cop was "ordaining", but the thief was the author of the sin (evil). Of course God's powers erase all doubt of the outcome.
Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God do something! If I watch a pre-televised football game and know the score, does it mean that I caused the outcome?
But you tell me that God takes into account man's actions. If God actually plans differently than He otherwise would have, because of man, then that necessitates a change based on foreknowledge. This foreknowledge of man necessitates that God do something He would not have done but for the foreknowledge. ... As for the football game, YES, you would have caused the outcome of the game by knowing the score, IF you made the game, AND you owned the game, AND you made and owned all the players of the game, AND YOU WERE IN ABSOLUTE AND FULL CONTROL OF EVERY ASPECT OF THAT GAME from before the sport itself was even invented. :)
God certainly can and does “turn away” from man when they have rebuffed His initiatives. However, God is always the first cause of grace. No one can merit the first grace – as St. Augustine said. Thus, God is not “ordaining” anything in the case of sin. Just as Paul says in Romans 1, He leaves man to his own wicked ways. This, Paul says, is the wrath of God ...
Yes, God is always the first cause of all grace. IMO, He's also the only cause of all grace. But I don't see how it follows that this means that God can't/won't ordain that sin happen. When God withdraws or withholds, He knows there is only one result that is possible. Left to our own devices, there is only wickedness. God uses, or "ordains" that wickedness, with full knowledge of the result. If God ALWAYS just leaves us alone when we rebel, as you seem to suggest in saying there is no connection to God's ordaining, then how do you explain that all the evil prophesied in the Bible just happened to come true? If I'm reading you right, then this supports my concern from earlier, that you believe that God looked down the corridor, saw whatever evil man decided to commit, and then fashioned history around that. That is not the kind of free will I believe in.
How about this: my side says that God ordains everything, you disagree. Does God ordain anything? How are all the things that are not ordained by God explained? Random chance in the form of free will? Do you believe that God is in full control, and if so, how could He be, in a divine sense, if He allows others to control the outcome of events?
When I think of God being in control, in a divine sense, I think of every prayer being heard, every hair being counted, every bird being cared for, etc. The idea that God wished to delegate some of that control, on purpose, to creatures as sinful as us makes me think He really isn't in control. You suggested that you didn't think that the crucifixion had to happen, which implies that it was man who made it happen, man was in control. My opinion is that if God really has stayed out of it to the degree I "think" you are suggesting, then we, as a species, never would have lasted as long as we have. Without God being in full control, man would have destroyed himself in his own wickedness.
Absolutely correct.
Man's "free will" is a curious thing. Man's will is nothing more than another term for man's rebellion. Man can either follow God's will or his own. But if he is following his own will then he's not walking in God's will is he? There isn't a third option.
Similarly when one thinks about what man actually control, one has to conclude that God controls everything either directly or indirectly. A case in point is Adam. There were certain tasks God asked Adam to do such as name the animals. However, who precisely gave Adam the knowledge and understanding to name the animals? God wasn't surprise by what Adam would name them simply because God created Adam with the right knowledge to know precisely what Adam would name each animal. Would Adam have named an animal outside of God's will? Not at all otherwise God would not have given him that task.
That is why Paul could say all things work together for our good. Nothing is outside the control of God. Augustine understood this concept when he came to the conclusion that there is nothing that we have that hasn't been given to us from God.
It does amaze me that people argue for the right of man's free will. What they are actually arguing for is the right to rebel against God's will. Didn't someone say, "Not my will but thine be done."?
If that is the answer, than why doesn't God's infinite sacrifice work for everyone? If God desires that all men be saved, and if Christ died for the sin of the WORLD, then there must be another factor involved in determining who goes to heaven/hell - a factor that God allows to exist. This, we call free will of men. It is a secondary cause - as only God can be the first mover. But since God has given His creation the ability to utilize rational thought and make free will decisions, God necessarily allows man to exist in a world that is not perfect, one that "defies" God's Will that all men be saved. THIS is God's choice, a graduated order of creation.
I don't think Christ went through the whole ordeal for no reason, except that it was absolutely necessary to save us. What other reason could there be for Him to go through the worst thing we could imagine?
For love. God wasn't required to do any such thing as die. He could have merely came down, waved His hand, and said "all men are forgiven". WHY does God "have" to die?? Who is forcing God to die on the cross but love?
And yes, I am saying that God not only ordains that sin happen, but also that it was His will that sin exist on this earth.
Strictly speaking, I disagree. It is God's will that man be free - THIS is God's will. He didn't give us Commandments for the express purpose of their being broken and disobeyed! God's strict will is that men OBEY Him and turn to Him - but their is a caveat - man must do it freely (of course, God guides us, but not force us). It is NOT God's "Will" that sin exists - He makes goodness come from it, but it is illogical that God desires sin to exist for its own sake. It is a side effect of man's free will.
I believe God is sovereign and in full control, and I cannot make sense of any idea that God's sovereignty is satisfied by God partially releasing His control to humans.
God doesn't give up control because we have free will! He already knows how we will act in every situation - thus, He is not surprised or taken aback by anything we do. To believe that God releases control is to place God into time, awaiting humans to make decisions, or forcing them to make the decisions He wants them to make! Why would God have to "force" anything, since He sees what we will do already.
Calvinists believe that man has free will
That's rhetoric. A Calvinist does not believe in freedom of choice. An unregenerated man can ONLY choose evil, while the regenerated man can ONLY choose good, according to Harley. This is not free will, this is a bound will. In any case, both men above can do good or evil in a given situation - that much should be readily apparent in real life.
I recognize that you said that man's free will does not impede God, but then you also say that God's plan takes into account man's actions. You further say that God foresaw what we would do to Christ, but, in effect, fortunately, God loved us anyway.
That is my belief - that God sees our free will decisions and responses to His initiatives.
First, that God did not take into account our decisions in the making of His plan. Second, that God did. Wouldn't you agree that these would be two mutually exclusive plans, i.e., that both cannot possibly be true? We don't make decisions like God does, so they have to be different, right? That's why I keep hopping on my hobby horse that God isn't dependent on man, even partially, for His plan. If God uses our decisions, THEN NECESSARILY, He planned differently than He otherwise would have.
For the most part, it appears that the two concepts are mutually exclusive. But God's foreknowledge of our actions doesn't make God dependent on man - He is able to plan accordingly, simultaneously, to enable man to make what is a free will choice for him, done the way God desires. Remember, God doesn't work on a linear time line. Everything is done in one moment for Him. At the same time, He sees what we will do in a given situation - while HE provides the impetus and circumstances that will enable us to CHOOSE what He desires in a given situation. Thus, He is not dependent on our actions.
We both agree that God created satan, that satan is evil, but God is not the author of evil, right?
God did not create an evil being. Remember in Genesis, after God had completed creation, He said it was "very good". We presume that the angels had not yet fallen. It was their free will choice to NOT follow God - which God foresaw but not desire or ordain. IF God created an evil being, then God IS the author of evil, correct?
God has no duty to the universe to stop satan's evil, even though He could stop it at any time with a snap of His fingers.
It is His will that evil exists, despite that He did not create it or desires its existence. God is pure holiness. He does not desire the existence of evil - accept in that it enable man to retain free will. If evil was not possible because God did away with it, then man would not have free will - without free will, there is no love.
In God's plan He withholds or withdraws grace from some and then they are left only to their sin nature, meaning they will sin. God ordained that, but He did not author the sin itself. That was done by man, even if he had no independent ability to avoid it.
God withholds grace not knowing what a man will do with grace given Him makes God just? Is God randomly choosing the elect? And while you say that God ordained evil - and claim that God did not author sin - I find as completely contradictory. When someone ordains something, they are creating it, authoring it. The moment you say "God ordained sin", you are saying that God authored sin. You can't have it both ways. Either God does NOT ordain sin, man does, or God DOES ordain sin, and He is responsible for man's sinning.
Perhaps a human example would be a classic "entrapment" scenario, whereby an undercover cop poses as a bum in the alley and leaves a $50 bill laying on his chest. He appears to be sleeping. When someone comes along and tries to steal it, who "caused" the crime? In this loose analogy, the cop was "ordaining", but the thief was the author of the sin (evil). Of course God's powers erase all doubt of the outcome.
Who caused the crime? The man stealing the money. No one "forced" the man to take it, no matter the circumstance of "entrapment". The cop was NOT ordaining anything, he ALLOWED it. There is a difference between actively creating something or forcing something or necessitating something, AND allowing it. NO ONE forced that man to take the money off the man's chest! Thus, with God. NO ONE forces man to sin - we do it ourselves. Thus, God does NOT ordain sin or necessitates it. To say this would to make God the author of sin.
But you tell me that God takes into account man's actions. If God actually plans differently than He otherwise would have, because of man, then that necessitates a change based on foreknowledge.
That is all speculation, I suppose. Who can say what sort of options move around in the mind of God or how He plans things such as that? We can say, though, that God foresees what we will do at the same time as He "plans", since there is no past or future with God.
This foreknowledge of man necessitates that God do something He would not have done but for the foreknowledge
Is God's will bound by His foreknowledge???
As for the football game, YES, you would have caused the outcome of the game by knowing the score, IF you made the game, AND you owned the game, AND you made and owned all the players of the game, AND YOU WERE IN ABSOLUTE AND FULL CONTROL OF EVERY ASPECT OF THAT GAME from before the sport itself was even invented. :)
God has given man the ability of being secondary causes. Yes, God gave us the ability to sit in a chair, but does that mean we cannot cause ourselves to sit down? God gave all mobile creatures the ability of self-motion. God keeps us in existence and has given us particular powers and abilities which do NOT imply that God is not necessary. We are created this way to further glorify God. When a man chooses to walk, He is doing God's will by fulfilling the use of his legs. When man does a morally good deed, He is fulfilling his purpose, to come into a loving relationship with the Father through love.
When God withdraws or withholds, He knows there is only one result that is possible. Left to our own devices, there is only wickedness.
And why would God withhold grace from us, knowing full well we need it to be saved - UNLESS we reject it? To say God purposely withholds grace from an unelect people who might have followed Him otherwise makes God a just God? That is the thinking of Jonah and his attitude towards the Ninevites...God does not withhold Himself from anyone whom He foresees would come to repentance due to His graces given them. He is a just and merciful God who deeply desires our love.
God uses, or "ordains" that wickedness, with full knowledge of the result.
REPEAT after me: "God allows", "God allows". Foreseeing is not causing something. To ordain is to cause wickedness. I don't recognize God being the cause of evil as a Christian teaching.
If God ALWAYS just leaves us alone when we rebel, as you seem to suggest in saying there is no connection to God's ordaining, then how do you explain that all the evil prophesied in the Bible just happened to come true?
God naturally saw that man would sin by following his own will, rather than God's will. God foresaw that man would turn away, despite God's trying to grace man.
If I'm reading you right, then this supports my concern from earlier, that you believe that God looked down the corridor, saw whatever evil man decided to commit, and then fashioned history around that. That is not the kind of free will I believe in.
God sees man's evil AND fashions history in that one moment of eternity. There is no order of action in God. It all occurs at once.
Does God ordain anything?
Yes, God ordains His elect. I personally believe that God foresees who will respond to His gifts at the same time that He ordains them - but this is a type of Molinism that is acceptable within Catholic theology. Regardless of HOW God decides, He certainly DOES predestine the elect and ordains that they be saved without losing any. Sadly for us, we don't know who is on that list right now!!
The idea that God wished to delegate some of that control, on purpose, to creatures as sinful as us makes me think He really isn't in control.
Who named the animals in the Garden? Who was given the command to be fruitful and multiply (to create)? Who was made in the image and likeness of God? Yes, God is in control in that He has already seen our choice.
Without God being in full control, man would have destroyed himself in his own wickedness.
Men DO destroy themselves as a result of their wickedness, spiritually speaking. When God does not abide in man, He is spiritually dead, but this doesn't mean that the man is beyond any possibility of doing a morally good deed. We should distinguish between doing a good deed and doing a pleasing deed in God's eyes. Only one with faith can do the latter. That person is spiritually alive, the former is spiritually dead. The spiritual definitions of death, though, do not necessarily transfer over to the physical world. Yes, God is in control because He has seen the end of the world already. We have to realize that God's foresight is accurate and it is simulataneous in that there is no past or future with God.
Regards