Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
LOL.
The notion that only the "saved" are admitted to the church is pure donatism. Poor Augustine, -- the stuff they do in his name.
I am not sure if your post contains a question to me. If so, please point to it and I'll be happy to answer the best I can.
Funny how all of a sudden the tense becomes important to you, when it suits you. Yes, Christ is a Salvation for a lost world. Without Him we would have no hope of ever being saved. A world without Christ would be a terrible place -- a living hell.
So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.
How naive! God gets what He wants but not in the way you see Him. Our Lord was nothing like you or I. He, the King of Kings, was born in a filthy, cold and dark place of a teenage, unwed Mother. He was a poor Man. His strength was in His "weakness." He did not assert Himself the way we would. He won people over by His humility, love, mercy and justice, righteousness, wisdom, etc. Nothing truly macho about Him!
If the Muslims were scripting Jesus, he would be cutting people's heads off! So, why would the Jews not see HIm as raising cities and killing people by the thousands? And the way you seem to see God, He does whatever He wants, just the way some powerful people act. How wrong you are!
I tell you that if Jesus were walking the earth today, we would have Him committed and ridiculed. You think our society would tolerate a social nobody telling us he is God's Son? You think the society would tolerate someone who was telling us that our bibical passages are misinterpreted, that we should sell everything we have, give the profits to the poor and follow Him?
I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners
And I say that without a free will he cannot even be human, let alone accountable for his actions. And, no we are not born sinners. We are born with a propensity to sin. For a baby knows nothing and has done nothing. ; tabula rasa
Man's nature is not opposed to God; man's nature thinks we are God. The idea of God exists in all people. But is it misdirected and unfocused. As such, our fallen nature leads us into error and self-deception, and away from God -- i.e. into sin.
Our idea of a God is based falsely on our own perception of power on earth. We tend to see God as as ourselves except bigger and more powerful (as in paganism), but we tend to ascribe to Him the same passions and human attibutes we see in ourselves. Jesus Christ proved us wrong! He was nothing like the God we see in the OT. By our standards, Jesus Christ would be considered a pushover and a troublemaker. What did the High Priest say to Jesus on the Cross? He said if you are the Son of God, then take yourself down from that Cross.
For no one could imagine a God being humiliated, tortured and killed. No one would respect such a god in Israel -- and, based on what I have read from your side, I see that the Protestant idea of God is more akin to that of the Jewish High Priest than of Jesus.
Funny how all of a sudden the tense becomes important to you, when it suits you. Yes, Christ is a Salvation for a lost world. Without Him we would have no hope of ever being saved. A world without Christ would be a terrible place -- a living hell.
So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.
How naive! God gets what He wants but not in the way you see Him. Our Lord was nothing like you or I. He, the King of Kings, was born in a filthy, cold and dark place of a teenage, unwed Mother. He was a poor Man. His strength was in His "weakness." He did not assert Himself the way we would. He won people over by His humility, love, mercy and justice, righteousness, wisdom, etc. Nothing truly macho about Him!
If the Muslims were scripting Jesus, he would be cutting people's heads off! So, why would the Jews not see HIm as raising cities and killing people by the thousands? And the way you seem to see God, He does whatever He wants, just the way some powerful people act. How wrong you are!
I tell you that if Jesus were walking the earth today, we would have Him committed and ridiculed. You think our society would tolerate a social nobody telling us he is God's Son? You think the society would tolerate someone who was telling us that our bibical passages are misinterpreted, that we should sell everything we have, give the profits to the poor and follow Him?
I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners
And I say that without a free will he cannot even be human, let alone accountable for his actions. And, no we are not born sinners. We are born with a propensity to sin. For a baby knows nothing and has done nothing. ; tabula rasa
Man's nature is not opposed to God; man's nature thinks we are God. The idea of God exists in all people. But is it misdirected and unfocused. As such, our fallen nature leads us into error and self-deception, and away from God -- i.e. into sin.
Our idea of a God is based falsely on our own perception of power on earth. We tend to see God as as ourselves except bigger and more powerful (as in paganism), but we tend to ascribe to Him the same passions and human attibutes we see in ourselves. Jesus Christ proved us wrong! He was nothing like the God we see in the OT. By our standards, Jesus Christ would be considered a pushover and a troublemaker. What did the High Priest say to Jesus on the Cross? He said if you are the Son of God, then take yourself down from that Cross.
For no one could imagine a God being humiliated, tortured and killed. No one would respect such a god in Israel -- and, based on what I have read from your side, I see that the Protestant idea of God is more akin to that of the Jewish High Priest than of Jesus.
In its purest, most blasphemous terms that was stated by Zwingli. Others fudge over it. God,-- Zwingli said, and I paraphrase, -- commits a murder through the murderer, then very quickly (being God, he is quick) turns around and sends the murderer to hell for that.
If you believe in that, you'll believe in Islam.
An infamous question from the pit; quite similar "if you are the Son of God, jump for His angels will catch you.”
So my answer to the tenor of your rhetorical question is NO.
First of all God establishes right & wrong for His creation.
Second God will not be taught morality by the created.
Third read Job 4:17; Job 40:8;
Fourth read James 1:13;
Fifth read Rom 9
The above all helped me.
…
Then from a personnel point of view when the same question flits through my mind I answer as Luther did with the aid of 3 lights; the light of nature, the light of grace, & the light of glory. The question falls under the light of nature sans the other two lights. Adding the light of grace does not answer the apparent fact that an all loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God would cause/let/allow/pick-your-favorite-word that some go to hell for eternity, but it does yield the confidence, not the answer,that one under its light will continue to trust & obey as God gives a measure of grace.
The answer might be found under the light of glory – don’t know; I doubt it though because that would make me close to knowing too much.
But men have thought to answer the question in order to get God off the hook. They do that contrary to scripture by removing God from His sovereignty in salvation; that by announcing that man has free will and thus making him ultimately his own savior.
But does that help under the light of nature. No, then you have an all loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, holding back & not saving everyone – like letting your rebellious son play in the middle of a freeway when you had all you needed to keep him from being killed. I advise against worshipping at the alter of free will.
Bottom line; you have simply made yourself more righteous than God - I wouldn’t do such a thing, or I wouldn’t believe in a God who would … As for the first “wouldn’t” been there done that myself, finally quit asking. You should do the same. If you do not, face up to the simile & then tell me you are comfortable with a straight face.
Man under the light of nature only has many other ways to get God off the hook including limiting the omni’s; restoration of all things –universal salvation … too many to know or mention.
Pretty weird stuff they teach, huh? That is what I would call depraved!
I have heard that the Calvinsits & al have grossly distorted Blessed Augustine's theology, but I never thought they would somehow connect it to donatism!
If you believe in that, you'll believe in Islam.
AMEN!
Should have pinged you for my weird stuff.
I must admit I have never heard of that definition of salvation before. I would agree that "achieve eternal happiness" is incident to salvation.
Anyway, as to whether we can be sure, I would just look to God's promises to us for certainty. Among the many:
John 10:27-29 "27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Phil. 1:6 "...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
We are told to be confident that He will not leave us, or allow us to fail by thwarting His good work, once (even "initial") true salvation is achieved. We are told that no power, not even our own will, can snatch us from His hand.
Thank you. Your stuff is not weird, but I am amazed how can Protestants see God the way they see Him when they have such a clear and detailed k nowledge of what Jesus was like. I will leace it at that. Thanks for the ping.
Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Did the scriptures really mean that Caesar Augustus had a census taken in China?
Ah, now you're getting it! Kind of like "All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one" (Romans 3:12-13). We have to be careful with "all", which doesn't usually mean a "universal" all.
I believe it would be more accurate to say that God desires all men to be saved, BUT allows men to choose or reject Him. God's Love is unconditional, so He loves even those who do not choose Him. Of course, you will disagree! I think Scripture can be touted out to support either of our points of view, to be frank.
Fortunately, we have Apostolic Tradition to tell us what those writers meant...
Thank you, Lord, for giving us the Church in such cases!
Regards
It sounds like the Buddhist and Hindu definition of salvation; i.e., Nirvana. Not a state of eternal presence with God, but a state of self fulfillment and personal bliss.
Isn't that exactly what occurred at the crucifixion? Did not Jesus pick Judas for just that purpose? Had Jesus not chosen Judas, Judas would not have been in a position to betray him, would he? If Jesus had not intended to send Judas to hell from the very moment he laid eyes on him, then Jesus did not know the future and he did not know His purpose.
Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (Joh 6:70-71 ASV)
I would be careful about calling that blasphemy.
Interesting, (and a bit terrifying) concept and very Western.
I think it would be more accurate to say we are born without sanctifying grace - a position we inherit from Adam. By being born without this grace, we cannot follow God's Will or merit eternal life. St. Aquinas makes the distinction more clearly than most. It is an absence of grace, rather than an actual "stain" that we are born with. We are not born into evil, but we are not born with the capability to choose God's Will freely. There is a difference - which better explains Catholic doctrine that says that we are wounded, not evil, by nature. Of course, if we were evil by nature, then how could Christ take on our nature?
Regards
The Bible says that you are born DEAD and born IN Sin. All Sin is evil.
Do the math.
I just can't ascribe the power to man to "enable" God to do anything. If God is omnipotent, He shouldn't need any enabling. I do believe God uses us and works through us for His purposes, but I do not think it is because we chose to give Him a permission slip.
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