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To: annalex; Cronos; kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dahlseide
Others fudge over it. God,-- Zwingli said, and I paraphrase, -- commits a murder through the murderer, then very quickly (being God, he is quick) turns around and sends the murderer to hell for that.... If you believe in that, you'll believe in Islam.

Isn't that exactly what occurred at the crucifixion? Did not Jesus pick Judas for just that purpose? Had Jesus not chosen Judas, Judas would not have been in a position to betray him, would he? If Jesus had not intended to send Judas to hell from the very moment he laid eyes on him, then Jesus did not know the future and he did not know His purpose.

Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (Joh 6:70-71 ASV)

I would be careful about calling that blasphemy.

477 posted on 01/05/2006 9:13:24 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Did not Jesus pick Judas for just that purpose? Had Jesus not chosen Judas, Judas would not have been in a position to betray him, would he? If Jesus had not intended to send Judas to hell from the very moment he laid eyes on him, then Jesus did not know the future and he did not know His purpose.

You are confusing knowledge of an event with arranging an event.

If I see my daughter playing with matches, I know what will happen. Did I arrange for her to do that? It doesn't follow that my foreknowledge was the cause of her actions. And thus with Judas. If God sees time as one now, then He knew that Judas would betray the Lord and could see this into His plan of salvation for mankind

Regards

484 posted on 01/05/2006 9:43:11 PM PST by jo kus
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To: P-Marlowe; jo kus
Isn't [God willing the murder through the murderer] exactly what occurred at the crucifixion?

We all agree there was divine foreknowledge.

The essence of free will is that foreknowledge does not translate into taking over the will. For example, a parent may foreknow that his adult child is making bad choices in life, yet he respects the choices for the sake of the child himself.

The Scripture teaches with great clarity that both in the case of murder of Abel and of the redemptive work of Christ culminating at Calvary, God did not take over the will of the evildoers. Cain is depicted choosing a poor sacrifice, then killing Abel out of envy. God is not shown to instill these choices into Cain. The Crucifixion happened as a complex interaction of human wills, punctuated by choices of individual players and culminating in the direct choice between Christ and Barabbas, exercised by the Jews. Christ, dying, described God as abandoning Him, rather than killing Him. In both cases we have God allowing human will to be exercised, then taking his turn to exact justice and do other good.

501 posted on 01/06/2006 2:12:21 AM PST by annalex
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