Posted on 11/14/2005 6:24:28 PM PST by null and void
As a former member of that, ummmm, organization, I have a standing open offer to answer any FReeper's qusetions about Scientology, either in open forum, or via FReepmail.
I will do my best to answer as promptly, concisely and accurately as possible, but as I left some time ago, I'm not always privy to the latest wrinkles.
Still, from what I can gather from my few remaining contacts not that much has really changed!
I believe your point was that a major problem with COS was its leadership.
My reply was that good leadership would shut it down.
Yes, nearly unprecedented, and not likely with COS.
I was making somewhat of a joke: as long as it exists it will have bad leadership. When it no longer exists you will know it had good leadership.
:)
Much like 'modern' medicine. The intent of nearly all practitioners is the elimination of disease, yet the practice of medicine is one of Man's deadlier activities.
Lethal treatments, horrid side effects, and hospital born and bred superbugs are part and parcel of treatment.
Yet we still go to doctors. Why is that?
It is because medicine offers hope and some successful treatments.
So does scientology.
There are some techniques that do work well and have genuinely beneficial effects. The biggest problem with them (IMHO) is that they serve to mask some truly pernicious stuff.
And here’s to your health!
And here's to yours! May we both reap the benefits and avoid the burdens in whatever we experience!
LOL! clever! I'm surprised the sonic boom didn't knock me down when that one flew over my head!
Was Hubbard’s intent the elimination of disease?
Was his development of Scientology’s technology based on valid science? Is the Personality Test valid science? Is the E-meter? Is auditing?
The stated goals are:
"A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights, are the aims of Scientology."
Was his development of Scientology’s technology based on valid science?
As valid a scientific basis as Freudian analysis. (IWO, no not really. Calling anything "valid science" with regards to psychology and spirituality is at best a strain.)
Is the Personality Test valid science?
It was swiped from a "scientifically valid" test: "Originally called "American Personality Analysis", but probably changed to "Oxford Capacity Analysis" (OCA) because "Oxford" carries more weight. The original test was created by psychologist Julia Lewis and was later adopted and edited by CoS."
Is the E-meter?
It's a valid as a lie detector. It came directly from galvanic skin response meters popularly used by psychologists in the era when scientology adopted it.
Is auditing?
Is psychiatric 'talk therapy'?
Do you believe Hubbard’s goal statement on Scientology?
Did you say you believe Scientology (from Dianetics “The Modern Science of Modern Health”) shares the same scientific validity you attribute to Freudian psychoanalysis - in other words: none?
Was that a yes or no on the validity of CoS’s Personality Test?
As you know, the E-meter is not used as a lie detector, it’s validity there is irrelevant. It deals with, according to Hubbard, but to deal with “engrams” and the “reactive mind.” In your opinion are these entities real and is the E-meter a valid tool for dealing with them?
Are you saying auditing is the same as talk therapy or that both have scientific validity or that neither does?
how long were you in Scientology?
Could you explain what you saw in regards to taking medications while in there?..
from what I have come to undestand, was that there was no official rules about not taking medication.. but they would treat you differently if you were..
also.. that certain medication were explicitly forbidden.. namely psychiatric medication?
Have also heard stories that the people at the Sea Org were not even allowed to take aspirin..
Early on in the church it was asserted that scientology processing could cure everything.
They ran afoul of the FDA on that one!
During the time period I was in scientology it was A-OK with using medical drugs for treating physical conditions. There are even policy letters on how to adjust antibiotics for best results.
The dogma at that time was that the doctor would treat the physical manifestations of the illness, and the scientology auditor would help the client address the spiritual and mental factors "holding the illness in place".
The dogma further implied that there are no physical causes for mental illness, and scientologists believe that only they can effectively treat or cure mental illnesses. As a result, taking "psych drugs" is regarded as a BAD THING. Not only are you indicating that your crazy, you are trusting psychiatrists to cure you!
Psychiatrists are regarded as one of the ultimate sources of evil on earth. All psych drugs we invented to suppress or control people, etc.
"Street drugs" are also forbidden. LSD has its own special place in scientology drug lore. Taking LSD one time would permanently disqualify someone from joining the Sea Org. Hubbard believed that 'LSD crystals' would lodge in capillaries and break loose at odd and inconvenient times to cause flashbacks.
As to aspirin use? As far as I know there is nothing forbidding a Sea Org member from taking it. But, I don't know that for sure.
It's also possible there are some processes that current drugs in the system might interfere with.
For example, some scientology processes, if mis-run, can cause a headache, and correcting the error is the preferred method of addressing such pain. Taking aspirin, or any other pain reliever, would make it difficult to know when/if the correction was done correctly or is complete.
Lawrence Brennan is worried he will be killed by Scientologists...I suppose under the Fair Game Doctrine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh8cxxiUhyY
You are very fortunate you got out.
Around the 9 minute mark is the true threat to the world.
They want to control the legal and educational systems of the world.
You might find this interesting.
Former Spy who infiltrated the KGB is furious about the deeds of Scientology.
Here are two interesting videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBl4mSYjrfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQJKUP8z94
Thanks for the input null and void.
hmmm.. kgb.. cia.. guess he has sense of humor too..
would like your take on my take of scientology..
I believe i have figured out all their problems... haha
First david Miscavige has to go.. he is causing the group a ton of problems with his policies and behaviour..
the sea org.. has to be gotten rid of or completely reworked... Maybe it will cost them some money.. but maybe just have regular paid scientologists.. who live in their own place with benefits etc.. it will cost them money but in the long run the money they pay will be worth it in the bad pr it saves.. not to mention all the money they pay to dicredit people who leave the se org would be saved..
then again.. if david miscavige was fired.. then maybe they could just rework the policies of the sea org.. and they could save it by reworking and eliminating those bad policies..
next.. would say.. elimination of attacking critics.. again.. look at the big picture.. cost/benefit analysis.. they anger the people who are attacked and they make lifelong enemies.. and all the people who hear about the attacks on the critics are turned off.. and also become enemies..
a new poll in 2008 for the first time declared that atheists were no longer the least popular group as scientolgists beat them out.. they are badly losing the pr war..
next would be disconnection policy.. this again causes a lot of the frustration with the group... if the beliefs of the people in scientology are based on the truth.. then the people in it should be able to withstand criticism.. and make their reasoned arguments to support their view.. and not have to cut people out of their lives.. especially family members..
They need to work more on people getting a tougher skin and arguments for their truth rather than disconnecting...
psychiatric medicine.. this is tough one for them as it is basically a cornerstone of their belief system.. perhaps they should just avoid taking in any people who have serious mental health problems.. and when ones develop... encourage them to take a break..
all other instances.. people should be taking advice from their Dr. including neurological conditions.. which should be the practice if it is not now.. and there shouldn’t be any stigma for people taking psychiatric medication for neurological conditions..
finally is price.. they are free to charge what they want.. but just from a business perspective.. think they lose a lot of money by the insane prices they charge for some of their material..
ok.. here is more advice i just thought of.. again with pr.. they have to have people who go on tv and don’t lie.. they can not go on and say they have never heard of xenu when their members who are watching that saying.. what do you mean.. and literature online from the course and l ron hubbards own words that talk about xenu.. and complete denial of other things that are true..
another thing.. is that once i found out that according to census data there are only about 55,000 member in the U.S. i felt more sympathy for their position as i feel they are harming less people.. so I am not sure claims of ten million members are smart either..
seems to me that there may be some sort of decent stuff in the mind training.. as a lot of people claim good results.. and found some of the things like auditing similar to some stuff i have heard from Anthony Robbins..
If they would focus on that in a way like Anthony Robbins does or did (haven’t heard from him in awhile).. they would be far better off..
OK...
First david Miscavige has to go.. he is causing the group a ton of problems with his policies and behaviour..
Agreed. Much of the policy comes from Ron, and much of that isn't all that great, but the ways the policies are applied and the style of management do make a big difference.
the sea org.. has to be gotten rid of or completely reworked... Maybe it will cost them some money.. but maybe just have regular paid scientologists.. who live in their own place with benefits etc.. it will cost them money but in the long run the money they pay will be worth it in the bad pr it saves.. not to mention all the money they pay to dicredit people who leave the sea org would be saved..
This would be difficult, it would be the rough equivalent of firing the entire Vatican staff.
then again.. if david miscavige was fired.. then maybe they could just rework the policies of the sea org.. and they could save it by reworking and eliminating those bad policies..
This would also be difficult. They are pretty much stuck with any actual LRH policy. The only saving grace is that one has considerable flexibility in which policies the organization focuses on. There is also some flexibility on the interpretations of the policy, but Study Tech restricts that quite a bit.
next.. would say.. elimination of attacking critics.. again.. look at the big picture.. cost/benefit analysis.. they anger the people who are attacked and they make lifelong enemies.. and all the people who hear about the attacks on the critics are turned off.. and also become enemies..
Not quite. Critics do need to be addressed. BUT, BUT, Scientology's only per policy option is to attack attack attack any critic. This is a guaranteed recipe for converting anyone from having a misunderstanding of what scientology is into a a life long enemy fighting for their very life. Most of scientology's enemies started out as someone who was concerned with parking or noise in their neighborhoods should a church occupy that vacant building on the corner, or some such.
a new poll in 2008 for the first time declared that atheists were no longer the least popular group as scientolgists beat them out.. they are badly losing the pr war..
Hey even atheist need someone to look down on...
next would be disconnection policy.. this again causes a lot of the frustration with the group... if the beliefs of the people in scientology are based on the truth.. then the people in it should be able to withstand criticism.. and make their reasoned arguments to support their view.. and not have to cut people out of their lives.. especially family members..
Every group has a way of disfellowshipping, exiling, excommunicating banishing or shunning unwanted members. Scientology does tend to over do it, though.
They need to work more on people getting a tougher skin and arguments for their truth rather than disconnecting...
Bingo. Amen. Right-on. Word.
psychiatric medicine.. this is tough one for them as it is basically a cornerstone of their belief system.. perhaps they should just avoid taking in any people who have serious mental health problems.. and when ones develop... encourage them to take a break..
Can't quite do that. Scientology claims to be the only ones with the real keys to mental illness.
What they can do is recognize that psychiatry has made a lot of progress since the 1940s and 50s era of lobotomies and electroshock, and that there are good hearted psychiatrists and psychologists who sincerely want to help their clients.
They also need to apply the same paradigm to mental illness as to physical illness - there are physical and spiritual components to mental illness. Medication and surgery should be regarded as an adjunct to Scientology counseling and training.
all other instances.. people should be taking advice from their Dr. including neurological conditions.. which should be the practice if it is not now.. and there shouldn’t be any stigma for people taking psychiatric medication for neurological conditions..
As you say.
finally is price.. they are free to charge what they want.. but just from a business perspective.. think they lose a lot of money by the insane prices they charge for some of their material..
When the prices starting going up (only a little, just 10% PER MONTH) I commented that eventually there would only be one person on earth able to afford it, and when they got upset with the church we'd have to close our doors...
More to the point, scientology's stated goal is 'to clear the planet'. They're planning on doing this when a hour of processing costs more than most people on earth make in a lifetime? How???
ok.. here is more advice i just thought of.. again with pr.. they have to have people who go on tv and don’t lie.. they can not go on and say they have never heard of xenu when their members who are watching that saying.. what do you mean.. and literature online from the course and l ron hubbards own words that talk about xenu.. and complete denial of other things that are true..
Oddly enough, per policy, advertising is NEVER supposed to lie NEVER EVER. The art of promotion is finding acceptable and attractive truths. It seems to be a lost art.
another thing.. is that once i found out that according to census data there are only about 55,000 member in the U.S. i felt more sympathy for their position as i feel they are harming less people.. so I am not sure claims of ten million members are smart either..
It's all in the way you do the count. Mostly the church counts anyone who bought a book at any Scientology facility or ever took a single class as a Scientologist. There are few things on earth more difficult than getting off of a Scientology mailing list!
seems to me that there may be some sort of decent stuff in the mind training.. as a lot of people claim good results.. and found some of the things like auditing similar to some stuff i have heard from Anthony Robbins..
Yeah. I've had excellent results and permanent improvements in several aspects of my life. Too bad the tech is wedded to a fundamentally flawed organization.
I also believe that the gains made in the lower levels are more than offset by the harm done in the upper (OT III and above) levels.
If they would focus on that in a way like Anthony Robbins does or did (haven’t heard from him in awhile).. they would be far better off..
Never heard of him. I'll check him out.
There is big outrage concerning the Gold Base in Hemet coming to a head.
Apparently, they have outed two protestors as being HIV+ and are requesting they be kept away.
It is unclear whether they got that info from bank records or medical records or from some other source.
These claims by Erhard sound exactly like what the Scientologists do under their Fair Game Doctrine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_Werner_Erhard
It is ironic that Heber Jentzsch, the alleged culprit, is now supposedly imprisoned by the Scientologists according to posts all over the internet...true or not true..who knows.
thanks for your reply...
I am thinking then maybe they should just throw in the towel.. and sell his books and training.. take the only thing positive about it.. and sell that..
a very disturbing audio tape is on youtube now.. a 15 yo kid getting beaten as punishment.. as he is told to stare at the picture of lron hubbard.. also said it was policy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cl0QkAL8Vk&feature=related
It would be an improvement.
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