Posted on 09/09/2005 6:19:25 AM PDT by HarleyD
"As we approach the second coming of Christ, whether that be one year or one-thousand years in the future, I believe the presence and power of common grace will progressively diminish. The restraining power of the Spirit on the sinful souls of men and women, as well as on the natural creation, will incrementally weaken. The manifestation of human sin and wickedness and unbelief will therefore expand."
Harley, watch it there fellow, this guy sounds like one of them Pre-trib guys. 2 Thess. 2:6-9.
The word "grace" has been intentionally splintered into near-nothingness. If a word means many things, it means very little.
There is God's grace to the elect, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure alone, and then there's God's benevolence at various times to all, i.e. the sun shines on the just and the unjust.
If you think "common grace" restrains this sadism to any significant degree, you are really, really, really, really, really ignorant about the real world. It is really amazing how Christians living in the comforts of the USA dispense this "common grace" idiocy to the rest of the world. Go there and live under their governments, and then tell us all about the wonders of "common grace"! God does restrain men, but it does not amount to much. Ah, the wonders of common grace!! Let's see. Millions of wives forced to immolate themselves on the funereal pyres of their husbands. Millions of babies put in baskets to be eaten alive by ants as an act of worship. Child prostitution as national industries. You gotta love it! Why would anyone want Biblical law when you can have common grace?" -- James B. Jordan"It is impossible for any human being or institution to be "neutral" as regards moral issues. The civil magistrate will either call good evil and evil good, or he will call good good and evil evil, and he will act in terms of these standards. Now, man hates God more than he hates anything else, and thus men hate other men because other men are images of God -- and people hate themselves because when they look in the mirror they see the image of God. Accordingly, all civil government is simply organized sadomasochism, until changed by the gospel.
But I'll give a guy named "Sam Storms" two points for irony in discussing Katrina. 8~)
Man does not need some "Anti-Christ" to reek havoc. He is perfectly capable of doing that on his own when God grace is not present. The lawlessness of NO last week doesn't show us that they are worst than everyone else. It shows us that we are no better than them.
I wondered who would be the first to comment on that. :O)
That was my concern.
Ouch, that really hurts my sense of personal and national self esteem! But of course so does this: " there is no one good, not even one".
I'm always happy to see you posting. 8~)
"But Kuyper's motivation for developing the doctrine of common grace was not solely theological; it was also very practical. For one thing, he sought to answer the growing effects of modernism in the church-world. He noted that modernism had a broad vision of the world and for the world, but that this vision was grounded in humanistic rationalism. He wanted the Reformed faith to have the same broad vision, but to be grounded in the sovereign work of God. Common grace gave him the answer, he thought. Further, Kuyper had become involved in a political career in the Netherlands and needed some justification for his programs and for his cooperation with other religious and secular groups in these programs..."
"Political"??? I'm shocked, I say, shocked! Can't we all just get along?
Another excellent link which offers more historical background...
Between Van Til and Clark, this Presbyterian takes Van Til any day.
"Accordingly, all civil government is simply organized sadomasochism, until changed by the gospel."
Paul says something different in Romans 13:1, and the Roman government at that time was as cruel and capricious, if not more so, than what we in see in most governments today.
"Ah, the wonders of common grace!! Let's see. Millions of wives forced to immolate themselves on the funereal pyres of their husbands. Millions of babies put in baskets to be eaten alive by ants as an act of worship. Child prostitution as national industries. You gotta love it! Why would anyone want Biblical law when you can have common grace?"
Are you suggesting we substitute "God's benevolence" for "common grace" here? Looks like Jordan is trying to hoard a word rather than use it to explain God's nature.
BTW, he sure is a pessimistic preterist, just an observation.
That being said I do think there is Biblical evidence of what I would say is God's benevolence. One of many examples for this would be God staying the hand of Abimelech in Gen 20 against him having relationships with Sarah. It was God's grace that He did not kill Abimelech. God states clearly that He "kept [Abimelech] from sinning" (ver 6). Abimelech was not a believer nor is there any evidence that he ever had faith. There was no asking Abimelech to turn to God or an offer of salvation. Just God's asking Abimelech to have Abraham pray for him so that he would live. As we see in Gen 22 Abimelech clearly shows that he never placed his faith in God even after this experience.
BTW-One has to wonder WHY people wouldn't turned to God if God popped in and state that He's going to kill you. Of course only Calvinists have this figured out. ;O)
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous judge, for former sins, doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had; and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptatoins of the world, and the power of Satan; whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God useth for the softening of others.The Confession clearly distinguishes in article vi between the grace of salvation ("whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings") and His general providence by which He restrains evil in the ungodly.VII. As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures, so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his Church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof.
"So theonomy teaches that civil rulers are morally obligated to enforce those laws of Christ, found throughout the Scriptures, which are addressed to magistrates (as well as to refrain from coercion in areas where God has not prescribed their intervention). As Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-10, magistrates -- even the secular rulers of Rome -- are obligated to conduct their offices as "ministers of God," avenging God's wrath (compare 13:4 with 12:19) against criminal evil-doers. They will give an account on the Final Day of their service before the King of kings, their Creator and Judge. Christian involvement in politics calls for recognition of God's transcendent, absolute, revealed law as a standard by which to judge all social codes and political policies. The Scottish theologian, William Symington, well said: "It is the duty of nations, as subjects of Christ, to take his law as their rule. They are apt to think enough that they take, as their standard of legislation and administration, human reason, natural conscience, public opinion or political expediency. None of these, however, nor indeed all of them together, can supply a sufficient guide in affairs of state" (Messiah the Prince, p. 234). "
"but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had"
Sounds like the Westminster Confession recognizes "common grace".
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