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To: HarleyD; Gamecock; topcat54
He who controls the language controls the debate.

The word "grace" has been intentionally splintered into near-nothingness. If a word means many things, it means very little.

There is God's grace to the elect, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure alone, and then there's God's benevolence at various times to all, i.e. the sun shines on the just and the unjust.

"It is impossible for any human being or institution to be "neutral" as regards moral issues. The civil magistrate will either call good evil and evil good, or he will call good good and evil evil, and he will act in terms of these standards. Now, man hates God more than he hates anything else, and thus men hate other men because other men are images of God -- and people hate themselves because when they look in the mirror they see the image of God. Accordingly, all civil government is simply organized sadomasochism, until changed by the gospel.

If you think "common grace" restrains this sadism to any significant degree, you are really, really, really, really, really ignorant about the real world. It is really amazing how Christians living in the comforts of the USA dispense this "common grace" idiocy to the rest of the world. Go there and live under their governments, and then tell us all about the wonders of "common grace"! God does restrain men, but it does not amount to much.

Ah, the wonders of common grace!! Let's see. Millions of wives forced to immolate themselves on the funereal pyres of their husbands. Millions of babies put in baskets to be eaten alive by ants as an act of worship. Child prostitution as national industries. You gotta love it! Why would anyone want Biblical law when you can have common grace?" -- James B. Jordan


6 posted on 09/09/2005 9:16:45 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Steven Wright: "So what's the speed of dark?")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; topcat54
Hmmmmmm....I understand Mr. Jordan's distinction. In thinking about the terms I would say he is probably correct. The term “COMMON GRACE” is probably a poor term. God is still benevolence to those who He so chooses. However, I would argue that God’s benevolences extend to all corners of the world. We should all be rightfully done away with but the only reason we remain is simply because of God’s lovingkindness. This applies to every man, woman and child.
10 posted on 09/09/2005 9:54:11 AM PDT by HarleyD (I live in my own little world because I enjoy the company.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Ouch, that really hurts my sense of personal and national self esteem! But of course so does this: " there is no one good, not even one".


12 posted on 09/09/2005 10:00:25 AM PDT by strongbow
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD

"Accordingly, all civil government is simply organized sadomasochism, until changed by the gospel."

Paul says something different in Romans 13:1, and the Roman government at that time was as cruel and capricious, if not more so, than what we in see in most governments today.

"Ah, the wonders of common grace!! Let's see. Millions of wives forced to immolate themselves on the funereal pyres of their husbands. Millions of babies put in baskets to be eaten alive by ants as an act of worship. Child prostitution as national industries. You gotta love it! Why would anyone want Biblical law when you can have common grace?"

Are you suggesting we substitute "God's benevolence" for "common grace" here? Looks like Jordan is trying to hoard a word rather than use it to explain God's nature.

BTW, he sure is a pessimistic preterist, just an observation.


15 posted on 09/09/2005 11:12:25 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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