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To: Dr. Eckleburg; strongbow; topcat54; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; Lord_Calvinus; suzyjaruki
In looking through a number of articles on "common grace" it appears there are various interpretations for this term. I would agree with the article you posted on Van Til and would say that common grace should never be misconstrude for salvation's call. I might be wrong but I don't think this is the author's intent nor did I read it this way.

That being said I do think there is Biblical evidence of what I would say is God's benevolence. One of many examples for this would be God staying the hand of Abimelech in Gen 20 against him having relationships with Sarah. It was God's grace that He did not kill Abimelech. God states clearly that He "kept [Abimelech] from sinning" (ver 6). Abimelech was not a believer nor is there any evidence that he ever had faith. There was no asking Abimelech to turn to God or an offer of salvation. Just God's asking Abimelech to have Abraham pray for him so that he would live. As we see in Gen 22 Abimelech clearly shows that he never placed his faith in God even after this experience.

BTW-One has to wonder WHY people wouldn't turned to God if God popped in and state that He's going to kill you. Of course only Calvinists have this figured out. ;O)

16 posted on 09/09/2005 11:38:32 AM PDT by HarleyD (I live in my own little world because I enjoy the company.)
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Here is the Westminster Confession's view (Ch V, Article vi-vii):
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous judge, for former sins, doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had; and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptatoins of the world, and the power of Satan; whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God useth for the softening of others.

VII. As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures, so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his Church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof.

The Confession clearly distinguishes in article vi between the grace of salvation ("whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings") and His general providence by which He restrains evil in the ungodly.
17 posted on 09/09/2005 12:15:07 PM PDT by Frumanchu (Inveterate Pelagian by birth, Calvinist by grace.)
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To: HarleyD; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg
***BTW-One has to wonder WHY people wouldn't turned to God if God popped in and state that He's going to kill you. Of course only Calvinists have this figured out. ;O)***

If asked, the overwhelming majority of Americans will say they believe in God. However I suspect very few actually believe God.
20 posted on 09/09/2005 12:46:48 PM PDT by Gamecock ("Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else." C.H Spurgeon)
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To: HarleyD; Frumanchu; topcat54; strongbow; Gamecock; Lord_Calvinus
I think the point Jordan was making is if we see all things in terms of God's benevolence, then how do we understand places and times of unimaginable suffering and desolation, like this hurricane or the Holocaust or Biafra or Cornell?

The unitarian explains this by saying man's destructive ego is causing a lot of unexpected grief for God in heaven and thwarting His desire that everyone play nicely.

The Reformed say it is all God's will or it would be different. Our responsibility is to work for good in His name by the grace of the Holy Spirit and leave the rest to Him.

"There but for the grace of God go I" -- no truer words spoken.

JOHN BRADFORD

"It is not uncommon to hear someone repeat a well-known saying upon seeing someone in worse condition than himself. "There, but for the grace of God go I." Few realise these words first came from the mouth of an English martyr when he saw a criminal going to execution for his foul deeds.

John Bradford was born in 1510 and received a good education in a grammar school in Manchester. He was able to earn a good living serving under John Harrington, paymaster to the English forces during the wars of Henry the 8th.

For a time he studied law but through the influence of a fellow student he was converted to Protestant Christian faith. Because of this he left the study of law and began his study of theology at Cambridge.

Though he would only live seven more years he was often referred to as "holy Bradford" not in derision, but from respect to his unselfish service to God and those around him. In 1550, during the reign of Edward the 6th, he was ordained by Bishop Ridley to be a "roving chaplain". Following Edward's early death, England was ruled by Mary Tudor who was zealous to bring back the Roman Catholic religion and to discipline "heretics."

Before Mary's reign was a month old John was arrested on a trivial charge and confined to the Tower of London, never to be a free man again. His time in prison was not wasted as he continued to preach to all that would listen and to write letters and treatises that would encourage fellow believers.

During his two-year imprisonment he was cast for a time into a single cell with three fellow reformers, Thomas Cranmer, Nicholas Ridley and Hugh Latimer. Their time together was spent encouraging one another and in careful study of the New Testament. All three were to become martyrs.

Finally on January 31, 1555, Bradford was brought to the notorious Newgate Prison to be burned at the stake as a heretic.

Though the burning was scheduled for 4 AM, there was a great crowd, made up of many who admired Bradford, who had come to witness the execution. He was chained to the stake with another young martyr, John Leaf. After begging forgiveness of any he might have wronged and freely forgiving those who had wronged him, he turned to fellow-martyr, John Leaf, with these words, "Be of good comfort brother; for we shall have a merry supper with the Lord this night!"

A writer of his period recorded that he endured the flame "as a fresh gale of wind in a hot summer's day, confirming by his death the truth of that doctrine he had so diligently and powerfully preached during his life." -- britannia.com

23 posted on 09/09/2005 1:02:49 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Steven Wright: "So what's the speed of dark?")
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