Bishop restores Latin Mass (Phoenix)

East Valley Tribune ^ | 06.21.05 | Lawn Griffiths

[el_chupacabra]

Bishop restores Latin Mass
By Lawn Griffiths, Tribune
June 21, 2005
The Old Mass has regained critical mass in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix. The one-year experiment to determine whether enough Valley Catholics wanted Masses in Latin — the mother tongue of the church — has ended.
And Bishop Thomas Olmsted has declared Latin a winner. The response to a first year of "Tridentine liturgy" or Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church in east Phoenix has been so strong that Olmsted is making them permanent, and extending the special Masses to more parishes. After July 1, a Tridentine Mass will be offered Sundays at St. Augustine in Phoenix, which has a largely Hispanic congregation. For Catholics in the northern parts of the diocese, a Latin Mass will be on Sundays at St. Cecilia’s Catholic Church in Clarkdale. The Phoenix diocese had gone 35 years without traditional Latin Masses in wake of the sweeping reforms ushered in by Vatican Council II (1962-65). Changes implemented in 1969 included turning priests around to face their parishioners instead of the altar, new music instead of Gregorian chants and Masses in the congregation’s native tongue instead of Latin. But some traditionalists resented changes and appealed for a return to the Old Mass, with its cadences and rhythms. More than 1,300 Catholics packed into St. Thomas the Apostle, 2312 E. Campbell Ave., Phoenix, on June 6, 2004, for the return of the Latin Mass. They heard phrases like "Sanctus, sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth" instead of "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts." Some came with their old Latin missals. People showed up that day out of both "piety and curiosity," said the Rev. Greg Kotnis of Sun City, who conducted the Mass. "Surprisingly, there were many young people, too. The old people were nostalgic for the old message," he said. "It is the Mass of the ages," said Michael Malone, whose wife Ann and seven children regularly attend the Mass at 1 p.m. Sundays at St. Thomas. "It’s been the succor of countless saints, and for us, my wife and my family, it expresses the best sense of the sacred, the mystery and the sacrifice of the Mass." The Phoenix man said more than 300 Catholics come from across the Valley, driving up to an hour each way, to take part in the Mass where the priest faces the altar, chants resound from a choir and altar boys hold prayer together at the foot of the altar before the formal Mass starts. It carries the tradition of receiving the Holy Eucharist on the tongue instead in the hand. Women commonly wear veils or mantillas. Rick Severs of Scottsdale, who went to that first Mass, never went back. "I did enjoy that, and it really brought back a lot of childhood memories, with the Latin songs and responses," he said. "But it is like anything else, you accept change slowly but once change comes, you don’t want to go back. You see how the change was really good." Olmsted has given the special community of Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church "mission" status, putting it in line to be a possible Latin parish someday. He has named the mission "Mater Misericordiae," which means "Mother of Mercy." Rev. Alonso Saenz was named pastor, and he also will continue serving St. Augustine Parish in west Phoenix. Saenz will be assisted by the Rev. Stephane Dupre, a French priest with the Fraternity of St. Peter, now working in the Diocese of Sacramento (Calif.). Dupre will arrive July 1 and live at St. Augustine. Priests with enough experience in officiating Latin Masses may do so, but the number is limited in the diocese. The Rev. R. Clements, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Parish in Chandler, holds occasional Tridentine Masses and recently conducted a funeral in the Old Rite. "He wore the black vestments and turned his back to the congregation," said parishioner Mary Douglas. "He is very traditional and very devout."
Contact Lawn Griffiths by email, or phone (480) 898-6522

Purchase this article for reprint. Click here for options. Copyright 2005 East Valley & Scottsdale Tribune Freedom Communications, Inc.

[bigsigh]

I said what bothered me. You're attempt at amatuer psychiatry is trime well spent on your part. Perhaps I can recommend a suitable university for your newfound profession. Given your ability to read motivation and emotion over a wire transmission, you should do well.

Your turn.

[old and tired]

By the way, I like the line "mass for all tme." I guess they just ignored our/their origins and how the church got out of Judea in the first place. Good stuff!

Even better stuff! Are you saying the Council was in error? Or perhaps you are saying we Catholics should get all our direction "sola scriptura"?

Actually, I am very glad to see you here. We Catholics need another dyed in the wool NOer hanging around the religion forum since we just recently lost one.

[Petronski]

If you want to limit us only to the original practice, we'll have to toss out a lot of things that developed later, like the printed bible, the Creed, church buildings, etc.

Or we can recognize that the Holy Spirit inspired what we have now and what we had in 1960.


I'd like to have a choice. Right now, I don't.

[Petronski]

In fact, I believe there is a name given to that particular error, although it escapes me right now.

I can't remember the name either, but it is error.

[Gerard.P]

It's called archeologism and it was condemned.

The TLM was the culmination of additions and development over centuries with its core; the Canon, as said by St. Peter and the consecration (including mysterium Fidei)as Our Lord himself stated it according to the Tradition of the Church.

[old and tired]

It's called archeologism and it was condemned.

Gotta love FR. There's a lot of knowledge out there.

[sitetest]

Thank you.

[N. Theknow]

Interesting choice, Phoenix.

Wouldn't it have been something if it had been done on Ash Wednesday?

[te lucis]

I said what bothered me. You're attempt at amatuer psychiatry is trime well spent on your part.

I'm not trying to analyze you, believe me. I have enough trouble keeping the basket cases already in my life at arm's length. I just noted that you seem angry. Just a harmless little observation, not gonna hurt anybody.

Perhaps I can recommend a suitable university for your newfound profession.

I'm far too dumb for college.

Given your ability to read motivation and emotion over a wire transmission, you should do well.

See above.

Your turn.

Back atchya.

[B Knotts]

I think you are confusing traditionalism with primitivism.

[B Knotts]

Thanks. That's the word I was actually searching for when I typed "primitivism."

[biggersigh]

To clarify: Mr. Malone called it "the mass of ages," not the "mass for all time." The difference is huge, as it shows that this was the mass that has the longest standing in the Catholic Church, not the only standing. Also, the origins of a thing do not necessarily reflect its tradition. I started out life by being breast fed, but I would consider myself, traditionally, an eater of solid foods.

[biggersigh]

To clarify: Mr. Malone called it "the mass of ages," not the "mass for all time." The difference is huge, as it shows that this was the mass that has the longest standing in the Catholic Church, not the only standing. Also, the origins of a thing do not necessarily reflect its tradition. I started out life by being breast fed, but I would consider myself, traditionally, an eater of solid foods.

[Cheverus]

Hey, no matter what you think of the variations of the Latin Rite (Novus Ordo in the vernacular or the 1962 Missalae Romanum in Latin) you have to confess that this was certainly a very Pastoral move on the part of Bishop Olmstead.

I wonder if we could trade Bishops with Phoenix, we can also throw in our Moderator of the Curia, the two luxery sedans they tool around in and a player to be named later.

[smpb]

It is not so clear that the original practice was worship in the language of the people. According to some scholars, worship in Jerusalem in Jesus's time was in Hebrew, even though the language of the people was by then Aramaic. So it is not clear that even Jesus Himself worshipped exclusively in the vernacular. The Church in Rome used Greek in its liturgy for the first three centuries, well past the time that most Christians there spoke Latin as their mother tongue. The use of special languages in worship is a very widespread phenomenon. Today, Jews use much Hebrew and Aramaic in worship even in places where those are not the vernacular. (I went to an Orthodox Jewish wedding, and the ritual was largely in Aramaic). In some eastern Churches, Coptic, Church Slavonic, and other "dead" languages are used in worship. One sees the same thing even in Protestantism, where the archaic version of English of the King James Bible with its Thees and Thous has become for many a "hieratic" language.

[smpb]

It is not so clear that the original practice was worship in the language of the people. According to some scholars, worship in Jerusalem in Jesus's time was in Hebrew, even though the language of the people was by then Aramaic. So it is not clear that even Jesus Himself worshipped exclusively in the vernacular. The Church in Rome used Greek in its liturgy for the first three centuries, well past the time that most Christians there spoke Latin as their mother tongue. The use of special languages in worship is a very widespread phenomenon. Today, Jews use much Hebrew and Aramaic in worship even in places where those are not the vernacular. (I went to an Orthodox Jewish wedding, and the ritual was largely in Aramaic). In some eastern Churches, Coptic, Church Slavonic, and other "dead" languages are used in worship. One sees the same thing even in Protestantism, where the archaic version of English of the King James Bible with its Thees and Thous has become for many a "hieratic" language.

[dangus]

El Chupacabra. Tee-heee. I just saw them do El Chupacabra on the X-Files.

[Dionysiusdecordealcis]

In nomine patri et filii et spiritu sanctu

You're missing two of three genitives: In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti

[Tax-chick]

Zing!

[bigsigh]

I am referring to the apostles and pentacost during which I believe God's intent was clear.