"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

[Patrick Madrid]

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.

[Dominick]

call for the return of the mohammedans or Jews from their grievously errant ways?

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran had comments this past January. This is from Al Jazeera, so you can be sure it is tilted against the Church. It is obvious the Church would like to practice openly in Muslim nations, as it does in Western ones.

[AskStPhilomena]

Quick quizz
Which is worse:
A. Living out of an RV?
B. Slaughtering your own children and slandering fellow Catholics in the service of satan?

[pascendi]

"Did you know he lives out of an RV?"

But the Son of Man has no place to lay His head.

Is He less credible then?

You're brilliant.

[sinkspur]

Quick quiz:

How does Drolesky get his daily articles to their sources?
Does he use free library computers to conduct his business of writing?
Should taxpayers subsidize Drolesky's use of free computers?

[AskStPhilomena]

Nowhere in that report does Cardinal Tauran call for the conversion of muslims to the Catholic Faith.
All he does is lament the lack of reciprocity.

[sinkspur]

The Son of Man didn't have an RV, even. And, He likely didn't mooch off of taxpayer-subsidized venues to spread His message.

Thus, He's more credible.

[Pio]

Did you know he lives out of an RV?

Should we hold him in higher esteem if he lived in the posh suburbs? Sounds like the good professor is storing his treasure for Heaven.

I own a home in the posh suburbs and it probably hurts my chances of getting into Heaven. (Jesus, camel, eye of needle, etc etc)

Sounds like Drolesky's chucked it all for Christ...someday I'll be that brave.

[sinkspur]

Sounds like the good professor is storing his treasure for Heaven.

Yeah. All that trashing of John Paul II is gonna look good when he meets St. Peter.

[GratianGasparri]

Which post proves that Peter Vere and his wife did not have an abortion?

There's no need for one. Nobody has offered any proof that Vere and his wife had an abortion. Among those who know Vere and his wife personally, the story is even more absurb when one does the math -- the "abortion" allegedly happened while Vere and his wife were living in towns about two-hundred miles away, and four years before they first met.

As for the satanism charge, this is like...er...well documented? Although he seldom discusses it outside of a small group of traditionalist friends (some of who are sede and SSPX btw) who at one time were satanists, Pete does mention it in passing in Surprised by Truth 3, once in the Wanderer, and some charismatic magazine if I am not mistaken. That being said, this took place in his early-to-mid teens. He was done with it by the time he got his driver's license. Vere hasn't had anything to do with satanism for almost fifteen years now.

[sitetest]

Thanks for the clarifications.

[american colleen]

"This is the most frightening and disgusting thread I have ever read on Free Republic. Reminds me of reading one of Dave Hunt's anti-catholic diatribes."

I am with you 100% - and these threads seem to dominate lately - trash anyone who isn't on the right wing fringe of the Catholic Church as embracing modernism or false Catholicism - and this includes the pope. No one on the right wing fringe has mentioned that if the GOSSIP about Mr. Vere is true, then he must have repented going by his current writings - but forgiveness and charitableness doesn't seem to exist among us Catholics on FR anymore. This is pitiful and sinful, and honest to God, sometimes I think the religious threads do more damage to Christianity than they do good - or even help. It didn't used to be like this, I remember learning stuff about my faith from people who were much more spiritually advanced than I.

Anyhow, I really don't post here much anymore because after I finish reading most of the comments, I am just too drained and demoralized. Thanks for listening to my rant!

Colleen

[sitetest]

Good to see you, friend.

[NYer]

Among those who know Vere and his wife personally, the story is even more absurb when one does the math -- the "abortion" allegedly happened while Vere and his wife were living in towns about two-hundred miles away, and four years before they first met.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- Lying
- Gossiping
- Spreading rumors or tale bearing
- Talking behind another’s back
- Being negative, critical or uncharitable in thought regarding others
- Making rash judgments
- Being unjustly suspicious
- Failure to seek to restore the good name of another whom you have injured through speech
- Cheating in games, school work, etc.
- Speaking unkindly to or about others
- Exaggerating the truth
- Bragging or boasting
- Flattery
- Complaining, whining or attention seeking

[Mark in the Old South]

Cute post. Like I said in every post I made I pray it is not true.

[pascendi]

"This is pitiful and sinful, and honest to God, sometimes I think the religious threads do more damage to Christianity than they do good - or even help."

Then tell Madrid and Vere to quit digging in the dirt and looking to make money off a crisis in the Church with another book which aims at telling everyone about a very small handful of people who that they think they're Holier Than the Pope. That's adding to the damage, and deepening the divisiveness. If anything, this thread should prove that fact to be the case.

Only in this stupid age in history could somebody be told they're out of the Church for being stick-in-the-mud loyal to Catholic doctrine and the sublimity of proper liturgical practice.

Another thing about the world extreme as in extreme traditionalists: the truth doesn't admit of variation of degree such that one can plot a middle course. It's bad predication to begin with. Truth, in fact, does lie at the extreme end of it's contrary.

It is, moreover, the tactic of Modernism itself to pit left against right in order to plot a middle course, and direct that course to its own ends. Those ends are not the same aims of the Church; the Church's aims will always and ever be the salvation of souls. That's it. But there's no doubt what the authors intend: to gather alignment of the Church for movement in a particular direction.

But the truth and doctrine are immutable, and the Church is constant and does not move in a direction. It's all perennial.

[pascendi]

I don't remember making such a claim.

I don't remember calling fellow Catholics out of the Church, either.

[american colleen]

Thank you guys for the clarification and reminders. This thread is just horrific.

My God, these people would have me burned and cast away as dross probably - even if I've repented and gone and sinned no more.

Nice to see you too, sitetest!

[sitetest]

Well, us evil neo-Catholic Novus Ordoites love you, Colleen.

That's gotta count for something. ;-)

[pascendi]

"My God, these people would have me burned and cast away as dross probably - even if I've repented and gone and sinned no more."

If you think that's bad, just try being one of these traditional Catholics, loyal to the doctrine of the Catholic Church sometime. It's worse.

[sinkspur]

Then tell Madrid and Vere to quit digging in the dirt and looking to make money off a crisis in the Church with another book which aims at telling everyone about a very small handful of people who that they think they're Holier Than the Pope. That's adding to the damage, and deepening the divisiveness. If anything, this thread should prove that fact to be the case.

I'm sure Madrid will back off when the likes of Ferrara, and Drolesky, and Gumaraes, and Michael Matt back off their integrist trashing of the Novus Ordo and the Church.

Those who support the Pope, the Novus Ordo according to the GIRM, and Vatican II are subjected to endless screeds from angry integrists, hurling every epithet they can think of at the post-Conciliar Church.

When someone challenges them, the traddies howl like stuck pigs and scream "unfair."

If Madrid wanted to really do God's work, he'd post a page a day from his book on this forum for the next nine months.

You are being disingenuous by screaming "divisiveness" when that's what the trads on this forum have been about for the last three years!

No pity party for you.