Daniel Bible Study (Ongoing Thread) Continuing To Revelation

Bible | 7-20-04 | Christians

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

This study evolved from the Threat Matrix Thread to the Threat Potentials Thread. The study is becoming detailed and I thought it needed it's own thread to make easier access to the information.

I am going to copy and paste the first seven chapters and comments. Feel free to comment at any time on any verse and or cross reference.

May GOD Bless us with His divine wisdom. Amen

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Interesting...

June 8, 2004 - The European Union is scheduled to adopt its new constitution later this month, but there is a great controversy over whether or not to mention Europe's Christian roots and heritage. The current draft leaves it out, but seven countries are asking to have it included. The seven countries are Italy, Portugal, Malta, and the former godless Soviet Republics of Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia and the Czech Republic.
Having lived under a godless, secular humanist regime for a generation, they know what a government with no responsibility before God is capable of, and they want no part of it.
France, Germany and Great Britian all oppose the acknowledgement of their Christian heritage, and now Spain is also opposed since they were attacked by al-Qaida terrorist.
Source:OmegaLetter - Jack Kinsella
Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’? - Dale Hurd - CBN

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

OK I am having a hard time with this. Are you saying the following? That the pope will regain control of all religions in end times? I can believe that. Now if we have terrorist attacks or whatever that takes the US down then we can start to figure who the powers will be from the old Roman Empire map.
Do you think we will be dealing with the Burgundians, Vandals, and Ostrogoths in end times. As the 3 horns?


The Arian Kingdoms: the Burgundians, Vandals, and Ostrogoths

Arius' teachings greatly influenced the three Germanic "Arian Kingdoms" - the Burgundians, the Vandals (the modern term vandalism is derived from their practice of completely devastating enemy areas that they defeated, including when they sacked Rome) and Ostrogoths - often hostile and competing, but eventually allied for a time kingdoms within the territory of the Roman empire (the Burgundians in what is today southern France, the Vandals in north Africa and the Ostrogoths in what is today Ukraine, near the Black Sea). During that same era, the successive bishops of Rome, as set up by the emperors of Rome (i.e the Emperor chose the bishop from his own city, a natural and practical political choice), were given the religious leadership over the entire area of the empire under the Roman emperor's control, including over their previously equal-with-him fellow bishops (by the very definition, bishop meant a local or regional leader - never a supreme leader), thereby becoming the sole Pope (all of the bishops were addressed as Pope before then).

The Arian Kingdoms were regarded as a serious threat to the leadership of the bishops of Rome, since they were religious adherents of Arius who would take religious control wherever they took political control (which is also what the Emperors and Popes have always done), so with the political and military power of the Roman emperors backing them, the Popes (the other "horn" that came up among them and "spoke great things" in Daniel 7:8) had the Burgundian, Vandal and the Ostrogoth kingdoms destroyed - the "three of the first horns that were plucked up by the roots" from the Roman empire (same verse). Thereafter the Church/Bishop of Rome became the "woman" riding the "beast" of the Roman empire (Revelation 17:3-18).

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/20020816.htm

[1john2 3and4]

though we differ slightly as to the burgundians being one of the 3 horns which fell (my vote went to the heruli), i tend to want to look at the little horn more as a body, or corporate entity, or an institution. it helps me to "de-personalize". maybe i do this out of fear of being flamed, while taking a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach. being well aware of the tendency to offend by "making it personal", it also might be helpful to understanding if we look at specific characteristics and actions of the little horn.

for instance; what 2 things are mentioned that it "seeks to change" in 7:25? LUB

[Quix]

Guess I'm still ver inclined to see the 3 kingdoms/kings falling in subjection to the AC or world ruler as being modern kingdoms/countries. I suppose it could be a group of countries but I expect it to be countries.

I can imagine various configurarions of varioius forms of apostate Christianity and/or other religions being involved in the world government evil--certainly I expect that. It's a Biblical thing to expect. But it just feels in my bones like the 3 kings thing is about 3 countries. Not set in concrete on it--just my fairly persistent perspective.

I suppose one could postulate 3 religious kingdoms--apostate Christianity; Islam and Eastern religions. But I don't think that's it.

FWIW

[Quix]

CERTAINLY, to my mind,

the changing TIMES AND LAWS aspect as you note some translations put it--

is a governmental thing as well as a cultural thing. I think that smacks of very heavy gloabalist government forces in place and effecting control at that point.

I guess I don't see even the most powerful non-government institutions being able to do that unless they are merely an arm of said globalist government. The most powerful institutions will merely function as 'yes men' at that point, imho.

I suppose if the same man were say head poobah of Islam or apostate Christianity or all the Hindus and Buddhists AS WELL AS head poohbah of the world government--that would make things easier in a lot of ways. And, I expect that to be the case at some point. Whether it is true before or after the 3 horns falling, I don't have much of a clue.

Did folks catch the AC thread, BTW?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1185336/posts

[1john2 3and4]

I guess I don't see even the most powerful non-government institutions being able to do that

ok...but what if it's been DONE already, and we're just not 'seeing' it? maybe not seeing it because we're deceived as well?

it IS interesting, isnt it, that these 2 - very specific - characteristics dont seem to arouse as much curiosity as would be expected for such specific information, dont you think? are we not really "seeking" after all? maybe that's a bit too harsh, but this just jumps out of daniel.

the natural question, seems to me, is....what law(s) is referred to here?

-"THE" law? (10 commandments)....the civic/ceremonial laws? (rel. to sanctuary worship & crime/punishment).... or the health laws ('unclean' meat, etc...)

[Quix]

You seem to have some strong convictions/biases on those scores that I just don't have.

It's conceivable. I'm just not near on the same page on that score yet.

Still happy to listen and understand what you're saying. . . and to consider it fairly genuinely.

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

OK I don't think we can get far with out taking all the cross references in also. As I go some ideas seen to change and sometimes I go back and forth.

I went just by two verses Daniel 7: 7-8 (and 9 I only include 9 because there were actions of the beast). After this post I will list all traits on one post to see better. I posted the cross referenced of the verses also.

Tomorrow I will work on cross referencing the cross references.

I am getting a clearer picture but we still need to dig deeper. I have to think about this tonight before I can make a for sure statement. (It always takes me a day or so to regurgitate what I have learned the day before.)

Traits of the Ten Horns and Little Horn
specific characteristics and actions of the little horn.

Daniel 7
7 "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a (1) fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had (2) ten horns.
8 "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, (3) another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and (4) a mouth uttering great boasts.

1. dreadful and terrifying
2.extremely strong
3.large iron teeth
4.devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet
5.different from all beast before it
6.had ten horns

OK will we all say this is the old Roman Empire? 1-6

ref.1. cross-reference
Daniel 7
19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the (1) fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
fourth beast
1.different from others
2.exceedingly dreadful
3.teeth of iron
4.claws of bronze
5.devoured,crushed and trampled down the remainder with his feet
6.meaning of ten horns on its head
7.the other horn which came up, and before three of them fell, namely, that horn
8.eyes and mouth
9.uttering great boast
10.larger in appearance than its associates
11.waging war with the saints and overpowering them
12.fourth kingdom on the earth
13.different from all other kingdoms
14.devour the whole earth
15.tread it down (earth)
16.crush it (earth)

ref.2 cross-reference
Revelation 12
The Red Dragon, Satan
3 Then (1) another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red (2) dragon having (3) seven heads and (4) ten horns, and on his heads were (5) seven diadems.

Revelation 13
The Beast from the Sea
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a (1) beast coming up out of the sea, having (2) ten horns and (3) seven heads, and on his horns were (4) ten diadems, and on his heads were (5) blasphemous names.
1.great red dragon
2.seven heads
3.ten horns
4.seven diadems (crowns)
5.dragon stood on the sand of the seashore
6.coming out of the sea
7.ten horns
8.seven heads
9.ten diadems
10.on his heads were blasphemous names

ref. cross-ref. 3
Daniel 8
The Little Horn
9 Out of one of them came forth a rather (1) small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the [1] (2) Beautiful Land.
FootnotesI.e. Palestine( this is in the bible I have.)
1.grew exceedingly great toward the south
2.toward the east
3.toward the Beautiful Land

ref. 4. cross-fer.
Revelation 13
5 There was given to him a mouth (1) speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for (2) fourty-two months was given to him.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, (3) those who dwell in heaven.
1. given to him a mouth
2.speaking arrogant words
3.speaking blasphemies
4.authority to act for fourty-two months
5.blasphemies against GOD
6.blaspheme HIS name and HIS tabernacle, those that live in heaven

ref.5. cross-fer
Revelation 20
4 Then I saw (1) thrones, and (2) they sat on them, and (3) judgment was given to them. And I saw (4) the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (5) testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (6) worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (7) mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (8) came to life and (9) reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
1.beheaded because of testimony of Jesus
2.must worship the beast and his image
3.must receive mark on forehead or hand

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

List of traits of Ten Horns and Little Horn

dreadful and terrifying
extremely strong
large iron teeth
devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet
different from all beast before it
had ten horns
OK will we all say this is the old Roman Empire? The 6 traits above.

different from others
exceedingly dreadful
teeth of iron
claws of bronze
devoured,crushed and trampled down the remainder with his feet
meaning of ten horns on its head
the other horn which came up, and before three of them fell, namely, that horn
eyes and mouth
uttering great boast
larger in appearance than its associates
waging war with the saints and overpowering them
fourth kingdom on the earth
different from all other kingdoms
devour the whole earth
tread it down (earth)
crush it (earth)
great red dragon
seven heads
ten horns
seven diadems (crowns)
dragon stood on the sand of the seashore
coming out of the sea
ten horns
seven heads
ten diadems
on his heads were blasphemous names
grew exceedingly great toward the south
toward the east
toward the Beautiful Land
given to him a mouth
speaking arrogant words
speaking blasphemies
authority to act for fourty-two months
blasphemies against GOD
blaspheme HIS name and HIS tabernacle, those that live in heaven
beheaded because of testimony of Jesus
must worship the beast and his image
must receive mark on forehead or hand

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

for instance; what 2 things are mentioned that it "seeks to change" in 7:25? LUB


Will get to this later in week I know allot is left out of our list so far. The amazing thing is all that I posted tonight was just from 2 verses Daniel 7:7-8 with there cross references. By the time we finish chapter 7 our minds will see much better.

Dear Lord our Mighty GOD maker of all! WE praise your name as the Most High of all and our meaning in life! Thank you for this time and place to come together and seek your face. Guide us in Your divine wisdom and divine understand as we work together to reach YOU. We call down the promise from YOUR Holy Word, Matt. 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
We bring this promise to You with faith it will be fulfilled.
Thank You for the comfort we have resting in Your word.
In the name of Jesus I pray,
Amen

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Listing to c. to c. and this is what I think.

8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.
9 "When you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately."

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

I guess I don't see even the most powerful non-government institutions being able to do that ok...but what if it's been DONE already, and we're just not 'seeing' it? maybe not seeing it because we're deceived as well?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a hard one but I think further study will iron this out. Sometimes I go through these spells of being deceived and then I figure out I am not. We live in a crazy world...I figure and it has worked for me so far is to keep seeking, at least my heart is looking for the right thing.



the natural question, seems to me, is....what law(s) is referred to here? -"THE" law? (10 commandments)....the civic/ceremonial laws? (rel. to sanctuary worship & crime/punishment).... or the health laws ('unclean' meat, etc...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the verse ...and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law;

and I cross referenced it to... key words are law and epoch

Daniel 2:21 "It is He who (1) changes the times and the epochs;He removes kings and establishes kings;He gives (3) wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

Then went to the dictionary for epoch.

Which makes me think he is going to try and perform something Christ-like.

Law=epochs=A fixed point of time, established in history by the occurrence of some grand or remarkable event; a point of time marked by an event of great subsequent influence; as, the epoch of the creation; the birth of Christ was the epoch which gave rise to the Christian era. ,br.



I just want to Thank You BOTH I am learning so much. I thought this was talking about law as in "golden rule" or "ten commandments" We are really going to learn a lot from each other.

[Quix]

YUP!

[Quix]

I don't think the thorough living out of the times and laws will be evident until the global government is in place. Personal opinion.

[1john2 3and4]

its just that i get excited....as the 'connect the dots' stuff becomes clearer. also, i must confess that researching history, particularly in regards to the correct identities of the king(s) of the north/south has become arduous....so that when something so clear 'jumps out', it gave me 'a handle', of sorts....something definite, to 'sink my teeth into'. actually, i appreciate your 'carefulness', honesty, & openminded-ness. reminds me to let the scripture speak for themselves (thank you davey!)

cross-references: rev.12:17...."and the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of god, and have the testimony of jesus christ."

rev. 14:12...."here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of god, and the faith of jesus."

so what do you think? seems consistent with the idea of "the laws" from dan. 7:25.

[Quix]

Yes, commandments of God would be in the philosopical, topical ball park of the law.

I don't know that much more than that could be assumed between the two passages.

Your assumptions of a relationship could be right. Yet, the two passages may have essentially, nothing functional or actively descriptive in terms of an event relationship to do with one another.

I still think that the Daniel passage is talking about a massive shift--a global paradigm shift of epoch making proportions affecting, essentially, all the inhabitants of the globe of whatever cultural or religious backgrounds. Otherwise, I think it would have been worded differently.

just imho.

[Hegemony Cricket]

bump for later read

[1john2 3and4]

could the point be made that this massive shift--a global paradigm shift of epoch making proportions affecting, essentially, all the inhabitants of the globe is described by dan 7:25?....im not sure what you're saying here....is it that a defining characteristic of these events, maybe the defining characteristic is that it is "known" or "seen", or in the fuller sense; "realized" by the entire world?

interesting.....im thinking that a change in 'the law' by itself could qualify as a global paradigm shift....not to mention "speaking great words"...."blaspheming"...the "most high" - shudder.

if im reading your meaning wrong, please straighten me out, id much appreciate it! but if the point (maybe 'missing point' to you?) is world-wide knowledge &/or realization, perhaps jesus' saying; "let the reader understand" - interestingly in parentheses! - in matt. 24, may be the 'counterpoint', so-to-speak. that is, 'ya gotta look into this stuff, people, because you wont understand unless you do'

god bless you! LUB

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

could the point be made that this massive shift--a global paradigm shift of epoch making proportions affecting, essentially, all the inhabitants of the globe is described by dan 7:25?....im not sure what you're saying here....is it that a defining characteristic of these events, maybe the defining characteristic is that it is "known" or "seen", or in the fuller sense; "realized" by the entire world?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This came off the top of my head! When the third temple is built they will start back sacrifice at the temple and somewhere along the line the anti-christ will stop sacrifice.
Do you think this could be it?

Leviticus 26
45 'But I will remember for them the (1) covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that (2) I might be their God. I am the LORD.'"
46 (3) These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai.

Leviticus 7
38 (1) which the LORD commanded Moses at Mount Sinai in the day that He commanded the sons of Israel to present their offerings to the LORD in the wilderness of Sinai.

Deuteronomy 4
5 "See, I have taught you statutes and judgments (1) just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it.

Deuteronomy 29

The Covenant in Moab

1 (1) These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the (2) covenant which He had made with them at Horeb.

[1john2 3and4]

that is a good question! thats why i am working toward an understanding of the time prophesies.....so i think that maybe looking at prophetic time will answer that. because when certain events happen has already been foretold. some have already happened. some will. im trying to line it out now. god bless!