The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[the808bass]

Yes, EDS is outsourcing my job to Mexico.

My big brother works for a company which EDS just spun off, UGS something or other. Of course they've changed their name 10 times in the last 3 years.

And sorry to hear about your illness. You're in my thoughts and prayers. Good luck and may YHVH the Provider guide your steps in your job hunt.

[CindyDawg]

Before you go

I guess everyone else knows but it's not in my dictionary. What's a Amyraldian?

[CARepubGal]

Naah. Just tired of the bickering (no offense but the pseudo hebrews are annoying me terribly). Call it collateral damage.

[malakhi]

I am under the law of Christ and desire to please Him. Adultery grieves Him.

And if you forget YHWH your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you this day that you shall surely perish. (Deuteronomy 8:19)

And the statutes and the ordinances and the law and the commandment which he wrote for you, you shall always be careful to do. (2 Kings 17:37)

The sum of thy word is truth;
and every one of thy righteous ordinances endures for ever. (Psalm 119:160)

I don't think God wants His laws abolished.

[malakhi]

Freepmail.

[the808bass]

Obviously we do not agree on the" themes "and so only reference the Scripture make this anymore than suppositional doctrine . I am asking for scriptural proof of what you say is true . Some times that can be various verses, or it can be a summary of biblically taught truths

I did post a rather lengthy post from Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology" on this subject of the First and Second Adam several days ago. I don't like to repost things like that every time I reference them. If you want a summary list of various verses, I'd be happy to provide them for you.

John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 1 Tim. 4:10 (put an asterfisk next to this one, I love it expecially much), Heb. 2:9, 1 Jn. 2:1-2, and 4:14, Isaiah 53:6, 1 Tim. 2:6 especially as it elucidates "ton pollon" of Matthew 20:28 and helps us understand who "the many" are, Rom. 14:15, 1 Cor. 8:11, Heb 10:29, 2 Peter 2:1, Matt 24:14, Matt. 28:19, Acts 1:8 and 17:30, Titus 2:11, Matt. 11:28, 2 Pet. 3:9, Rom. 5:8, Luke 23:34, Rom. 5:18.

So then why does Jesus make distinctions on the roles of the various members of the Trinity?

The Father is our Sanctifier (1 Thes. 5:23), Jesus Christ is our Sanctifier (1 Cor. 1:2), and the Holy Spirit is our Sanctifier (Rom. 15:6). The Holy Spirit is our "Counselor" (John 14:16) and Jesus is our "Counselor" (Isa. 9:6).

Psalm 104:30 says the Holy Spirit is the Creator. Peter, in Acts 5:3-4, calls him God. The Spirit is the "Author of life" (John 3:3-6, Rom. 8:10) through rebirth and renewal (Titus 3:5) and He seals us for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). In Isaiah, 6:8-10, Isaiah says the Lord is speaking and Paul says that the Spirit is speaking in the same passage.

Paul says that Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom. 1:4. Jesus said He would raise up His own body (John 2:19-21). Paul declares it was through the Holy Spirit God raised up Christ from the dead (Rom. 8:11). And Luke places the icing on the Trinitarian cake by saying that the one God raised up Christ from the dead (Acts 17:30-31).

At creation, the Bible says the Spirit was involved, Gen. 1:2. But the Hebrews specifically says that the Father is the Creator (Heb. 1:2). And John says creation was accomplished through the Son (Jn. 1:3).

And lest you think that these examples do not address your points, "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Col. 2:9) and Peter calls the Holy Spirit God in Acts 5:3-4. It is a shaky argument from an absence of evidence which ignores the evidence at hand that attempts to say one person of the Trinity performs a task to the exclusion of the other persons of the Trinity.

And let us end with a quote....

Indeed, where the prophets usually say that the words they utter are those of the Lord of Hosts, Christ and the apostles refer them to the Holy Spirit. It therefore follows that He who is pre-eminently the author of prophecies is truly Jehovah

- Calvin

[the808bass]

FM Back. And your point about the dietary laws was simply excellent.

[monkfan]

I believe a truly free will is necessary for there to be true moral responsibility for our choices and actions. You don't "punish" your computer for following its programming. If a piece of code fails, it is the fault of the programmer, not the software. For punishment of sin to be just, it must be for that which we are truly responsible. And we are only truly responsible if we truly had a choice.

Something else to consider is how love works. It must be given freely. In order for that to be possible, it is necessary that we have a choice in the matter. If we don't have a choice, if it's not given freely, then it ceases to be love. It would be something artificial. As such, it would be worthless. Therefore, free will exists so that love can exist. Not that I disagree with what you stated above, but thought the rest of the picture was worth painting. :)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I was posting to Becky. I only pinged you because I thought you were in the discussion.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

fulfills (the Torah)." Code word for "abolishes.

I really don't care what you believe. God will guide your heart wherever he intends it to rest.

But please don't play the "unless you say we're both right, you're a fascist who wants me dead" card.

I'd expect that from some liberal jerk, but not from anyone on a Conservative forum like Free Republic.

And as a Christian who believes God has as much a plan for every Jew on the face of the earth as he does for every Christian, and as a Calvinist who believes it is my duty to defend and protect the lives of every Jewish person, I am offended beyond telling by your statement.

John Calvin was responsible for returning Jews to Geneva. Cromwell brought the Jews back to England. Calvinists in France and Holland did more to save Jews during the Holocaust than any other group.

It continues to be a problem for some to not recognize who their friends really are. But since you're so new to the Jewish faith, I suppose you can be forgiven for any lapse in historical perspective.

In his commentary on Romans 11 and in the Institutes, John Calvin wrote that Scripture teaches us that God will save the Jews; that the Jews are elect by God and are to be loved as wayward brothers whom we long to see return.

Pity you don't share the sentiment.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There's this keen thing called "google." I use it a lot. I mean, really, a lot. Cause you guys use such big words like "horses" and "houses" on these religious threads.

Try it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Be fair, Mack. RnMom posts Scripture to support her beliefs, not verses from Calvin.

Debate the words and what they mean. The Bible and the Holy Spririt are what we've been given to know God with.

Forget who's writing the posts, and read the words.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Like the thief on the Cross next to Jesus. His heart was regenerated by God as he was dying, and he was saved.

But God had written his name in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

FM




8~)

[drstevej]

Amyraldian = 4 Point Calvinist (unlimited atonement) = T-U-_-I-P

[Revelation 911]

ma does know her Scripture very very well and her Calvinist concepts are reasoned and well thought. She can get a little foamy around the jowls sometimes and tends to play with newbies like a cat with catnip, but she's passionate - anything but "lukewarm"

I love her none the less (group hug guys?)

Cindy You'd be wise to listen and investigate your own faith, as you'd be wise to listen to any teacher

IMO, she'd have made a good Pastor (with a male bishop of course) LOL

[HarleyD]

And Augustine was no Calvinist.

I'll let you in on a deep, dark secret of mine if you don't share it with my Reform friends. Apart from the TULIP and a few articles by Calvin, I have read almost exclusively from Augustine. I think you would find that he's more Calvinist than you give him credit for.

[HarleyD]

"You see, if God does not love all men then we should not love them either."

God loves all men?!?

Please don't tell that to the worshippers of Baal or Molech in the Old Testament. Or Korah and company when they rebelled against Moses and God destroyed them. Or the Philistines David slaughtered to purify the land. And less you think this is just the Old Testament then you may want to read about the plagues and wars and the releasing of Satan and demons on the earth that is coming in Revelations.

And if your still not convinced there is the "Jacob I love but Esau I hate" verse in both the Old and New Testament. Hard to reconcile that with the idea that God loves all men. Guess there's at least one person God said he hates so He can't love "all" men.

Our purpose is to give glory to God-period. Love is but one way we give glory to God.

[CindyDawg]

There's this keen thing called "google." I use it a lot. I mean, really, a lot. Cause you guys use such big words like "horses" and "houses" on these religious threads. Try it.

I have found that I respond to people in only 3 ways. I either like um (most), I dislike them ( a few) or they bore me.

YAWN

Mornin All

[CindyDawg]

Amyraldian = 4 Point Calvinist (unlimited atonement) = T-U-_-I-P

Thanks. I'm not really in to horticulture:')