The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I wonder if horses eat eggs?

Looks like "FM" is a problem now too:), LOL

One quick post here then I'm out of here.

I had a chicken once that laid her egg everyday in my mares feed trough, and the mare eat it, shell and all. She was in foal so I figured it was good for her. When I told some people about her doing that they didn't believe me. So I held one out to her on the palm of my had, she sniffed it, then just chomp the whole thing into her mouth and ate it. She did loose some of it:) running out the front. But she liked them.

Hope your ride is good.

Later.

Becky

[ksen]

I don't accept Romans as canonical.

That's ok. The ancient world did not accept that the earth was a sphere suspended in space....but that didn't change the reality.

[SoothingDave]

You believe men can earn grace.

No, I don't.

Well as a Faithful Catholic you should

Frankly, Terry, if you understood Catholicism you would still consider yourself Catholic.

Q.575. Are these three things, namely: An outward or visible sign, the institution of that sign by Christ, and the giving of grace through the use of that sign, always necessary for the existence of a Sacrament?

Yes. The giving of grace. Not the earning of grace. Read on:

What is a Sacrament?
An outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace

Giving grace. I see nothing about earning grace. Through the signs of the sacraments, grace is freely given.

So you EARN grace every time you go to confession or communion

No, I receive grace. Why do you think it's "earned"? What do I do to "earn" it? Show up? Ask God for a gift? Is that earning? Does that make me meritorious?

When you raised you rchildren and they were hungry and asked you for lunch, did you think they earned it when you gave it to them? My niece may know where the milk is on my sister, but in no way is she "earning" it.

This will be the 4th time asking. If the men in hell deserve to be there cause they could never choose the good, who made them that way?

Men do not choose God because original sin causes us to be born sinners..thank Adam

Thank you for trying to answer. It's more than the other Calvinists will do. Now. This isn't an answer. It's a diversion.

Did God not plan and ordain original sin? =Was Adam a free agent? Did God not plan and ordain Adam's action? How is any of this the responsibility of the one whom God created for the express purpose of damning? Who made them that way?

Nothing can occurs that is outside Gods plan.

If you truly believe this, then apply its logic to the questions above.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Ok let me amend the phrase I used. God is offended by sin, His wrath at man is the result of sin . Sin = the rebellion of man against Gods revealed commands

So God reveals one set of commands, but truly foreordains another? He tells Pharoan publicly to do one thing, but secretly commands and foreordains another set of actions?

So even though Pharaoh does exactly what God fore-ordained, indeed Pharaoh could do no other thing, he is still wrong because God revealed that He wanted somethign different?

Strange.

It was sin because Pharaoh had the ability to allow the people to go , he hardened His own heart before God acted to harden it

How did Pharaoh have this ability? Was he capable of doing something that God did not want him to do? Is he more sovereign than God? How could Pharaoh harden his own heart before God acted, when God foreordained the entire thing at the moment of creation?

A bundle of contradictions, you are.

God hates sin, but it is a tool in His Hand

What is sin?

SD

[SoothingDave]

1. God is absolutely sovereign.
2. People who sin are acting against the will of God.

Let me guess - every time someone has posted Romans 9:19 on this thread, you two were out getting coffee?

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

So, what is sin?

SD

[SoothingDave]

How is it that the motives of these evildoers are judged, if not according to a standard of obedience to God? What is sin? Are we not to do what God wants us to do? If men do what God wants, how can this be wrong?

SD, just because you don't like the idea does not negate that it is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Go read Gen 50. Were Joseph's brothers following God's plan when they sold Joseph into slavery in Egypt? Was God surprised by anything? Did Joseph's brothers sin? What were Joseph's conclusions, recorded by the Holy Spirit: "you intended it for evil but God intended it for good, for the saving of many lives." What about the men who crucified Christ according to the predetermined plan of the Father? Was God surprised by Calvary? Did God sin when he did not spare His own son? Absolutely not. Did the men who held an illegal trial with false witnesses sin? Of course they did. What about the nations God used to judge Israel? On what basis did He later judge them?

You didn't answer my question. In fact, you re-stated it. I want you to answer it. What about the nations God used to judge Israel? On what basis did He later judge them? What is sin? If men do what God wants, how can this be wrong?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Whose logic are you trying to strain them through?

You know. Logic logic. What a strange question. Unless you are claiming that God is irrational.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Who did cause the rejection of God, in your system? Was humanity predestined for Hell from the outset? And if so, on what basis?

This is what I've been asking for days. I either get nothing or get a finger pointed to Adam. Which is a deflection, not an answer.

SD

[Quester]

The point that I was making is that God did not plan this, ... nor were the Israelites doing as He intended when they did this.

If He knew it would happen and created the situation anyway then He did intend for it to happen.

Your belief is at odds with His testimony.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

He says that He didn't plan or intend this ... though, obviously, ... He allowed it.

[SoothingDave]

So it is a spiritual condition?

Absolutely. It's a deprivation of grace in the soul. We are born without the necessary grace to be in fellowship with God.

If it's not passed on genetically (which I didn't think you'd argue), why is it that Jesus is not the bearer of grace to all mankind in the same way Adam was the bearer of sin?

It is an inherited condition. And even if both parents have had the condition "corrected" they still pass it on. So it is deep within us.

Adam's fault is passed on by inheritance. Jesus, like I said, had no children. So there must be a different way of passing on His cure. It's called the Church.

SD

[SoothingDave]

And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I always thought this was just an accident of language. God has no need to repent.

SD

[SoothingDave]

God knew both the qualities of Jacob and Esau (not their merits) and loved Jacob’s qualities and hated Esau’s. But God shows NO partiality to our merits.

Fair enough. It's good to remember that words don't always mean what we think they do.

SD

[drstevej]

***Fair enough. It's good to remember that words don't always mean what we think they do.***

Do you really mean this??? Remember: words don't always mean what we think they do.

Woah, what do I mean by this ??? Since: words don't always mean what we think they do.

[SoothingDave]

Clever.

SD

[HarleyD]

Actually God had quite a bit to say on the subject:

Leviticus 20:1-5 "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "You shall also say to the sons of Israel: 'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 'I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name. 'If the people of the land, however, should ever disregard that man when he gives any of his offspring to Molech, so as not to put him to death, then I Myself will set My face against that man and against his family, and I will cut off from among their people both him and all those who play the harlot after him, by playing the harlot after Molech.

One can only conclude that God knew they would do this and gave specific laws against it. The purpose of the laws was to show how we couldn't live by them.

[drstevej]

***Clever.***

Does he mean "clever" or is he being clever?

Thanks SD, I am now caught in a maze of meaning. Know what I mean?

[SoothingDave]

Does he mean "clever" or is he being clever?

Sorry, I meant "cleaver." I'm gonna hack some arguments to bits. :-)

SD

[Quester]

One can only conclude that God knew they would do this and gave specific laws against it.

Wouldn't one also have to conclude that man's God-given will was causative in regard to this circumstance ?

[IMRight]

Thanks SD, I am now caught in a maze of meaning. Know what I mean?

Yes.... they call it "Calvinism". ;-)

[drstevej]

"Cleaver" also means to hang on to something. So are you gonna hack up arguments you really should hang on to?

:-)