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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I think this is an important point:
Does God exist within time, or in eternity?
It is my position that God transcends time (He created it, after all). So to speak of God "knowing the future" is a misnomer. It is a failure of our limited language that we fall into describing Him this way. God doesn't "know the future", because this implies that He exists along a particular trajectory of time. Instead, He simply KNOWS.
I disagree.
See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you this day, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomy 30:15-19)
He only chooses us out of his grace, not because he sees anything in us.
And, according to this theology, the fate of those He doesn't choose is???
According to Arminian theology, those who get in heaven are lucky.
I see it exactly the opposite.
You mean, like this?
You have a second grade defense of Arminianism. Well done. You can come to the front of the class to get a pop after nap time. (rwfromkansas, #2,947)
That's not an example I would use. By "free choice" I mean, capable of making moral choices, and capable of obeying or disobeying God.
Just like He did with Jonah.
Even in scripture, this doesn't always happen, though. God didn't force Saul back into obedience.
I don't think salvation varies from person to person. Is this what you believe?
Being a Jew, my concept of soteriology is completely different. In Judaism, "salvation" refers to being saved from the trials and tribulations of this world (e.g. the freeing of the Israelites from bondage in Egypt). We don't really use "salvation" in terms of the afterlife. Basically, the righteous go to Heaven, and those lacking righteousness go to Gehinnom. One can be righteous either by not sinning, or by repenting and being forgiven. To use Christian vocabulary, both righteousness and eternal life with Him are acts of pure grace, because God is not under any obligation to forgive us our sins. But we have His promise that He will.
8=)
Excellent! When do you close?
When you get some pictures, you'll have to post them.
Even give us free will? ;o)
At sunset. Which, since we are getting later into spring, is now around 7:30.
Allows me to get a little bonus freeping in!
I finally got my new computer set up at my new house, so I'm giving her a spin to see what she can do! ;o)
Please, Mack.
Sarcophagus sounds much classier. ;o)
Alright... then we agree.
would seem to be empirically disprovable.
In the future just assume that ALL of my arguments are disprovable. You'll save us all a lot of time. :-)
Gotta run. Surprise date night.
Ah, well, God bless the time change, then.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone else attended, or will anyone else be attending Good Friday services today?(malakhi, II and ET excepted, of course.)
Grace is unmerited favor. To say that God withholding something unmerited is unjust is to say that God is withholding something He owes. He does not owe anyone His Grace.
I live in Florida so Jeb Bush is my Governor. Let's say there are three inmates due to be executed at midnight. The only power left to stop the executions is a phone call from Gov. Bush giving the condemned prisoner(s) amnesty.
11:50pm rolls around and there hasn't been a phone call. 11:55pm the phone rings and Gov. Bush gives prisoner #1 amnesty. By midnight there has been no other calls and prisoners #2 and #3 are put to death. Was Governor Bush unjust in letting prisoners #2 and #3 die in the execution chamber?
Of course he wasn't. In fact we would think he was most gracious by giving amnesty to the one. Why don't we understand God's grace in the same way? We are condemned prisoners of sin awaiting execution. Some get the amnesty and some don't. That doesn't make God unjust. In fact, that anyone of us gets His Grace is a testimony to His goodness.
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