The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[ksen]

Thanks for the review Mack.

I guess my problem with Calvinism today is the fact that one has to be TAUGHT it as a system.

The reviewer should have trouble with Christianity in general because it too must be taught. In fact our Lord commanded for it to be taught.

• Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; - Mt 28:19

• Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even until the end of the world. Amen. - Mt 28:20

Christ commands for His doctrines to be taught, which means they aren't just naturally known.

• For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. - He 5:12

Christianity must be taught. So to argue against Calvinism because it must be taught is to argue against Christianity as well.

[CindyDawg]

Becky

If it's in the bible is it still cursing? I'll pick up the book Mack recommends but I'm still on chapter 2 of sea biscuit and1 of ATKM. Couldn't ride Okie today:'( He has a 3-4 inch cut or bite on his right side. If I put the cinch on right next to his legs I barely miss it but any slipping and it rubs. The instructor said since I have the felt one that wait a day or two and then ride. Thinking about getting some of the paint on bandaides. I really wanted to ride the trails tomorrow but I don't want to cause him pain. I was cleared as long as I keep him at a walk and take someone with me me at first so that he doesn't resist leaving the ranch. She told me that when I take out by myself though to let her know so she knows where to coming looking for me if I don't come back. I think she was teasing me, maybe:')

[BibChr]

Too busy to waste my time on it, if your post is a fair representation of his approach ("I don't systematize like the Calvinists do; I just believe the simple Bible").

Dan

[snerkel]

Simple question. What happened to those who Jesus called to be His disciples? Did they spend time "thinking" about whether to follow Him or not, or did they drop what they were doing and immediately follow Him?

[snerkel]

I assume each participant presented their position without watering it down. I have no problem with that.

[ksen]

You guys should go back and read the pre trib debate a while back amoung your swarm members, it was quite eye opening, I don't have a link but I sure one of the swarm can guide you there.

I was on that thread for awhile. It doesn't change what I believe now. What's called Calvinism doesn't teach an Eschatological viewpoint. Although most Reformed and Calvinist churches are Amillenial and hold to Covenant theology. I still hold to the Pre-Mill, Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church and to Dispensationalism.

[IMRight]

Simple question. What happened to those who Jesus called to be His disciples? Did they spend time "thinking" about whether to follow Him or not, or did they drop what they were doing and immediately follow Him?

Better think throught that one again. If you're saying they didn't choose to follow Him because they were previously selected as part of the elect... can you think about one of them who demonstrated that perhas he was NOT elect?

[ksen]

easy chair, hard questions- can Christ lose a Christian?

[CindyDawg]

So you think God divides us into groups of heaven/hell and then subdivides the groups into who goes into the tribulation? You think it's just depending on the year you were born or he holds off on making some to the very last specifically to go thru these last days? You know , you there, heaven but 7 years of hell on earth first. You, hell but something I need you to do first.
.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

believe it, the level of ego casualty in the 5-point clique is beyond measure

LOL. He must have visited in here before. hehe.

[Quester]

Simple question. What happened to those who Jesus called to be His disciples? Did they spend time "thinking" about whether to follow Him or not, or did they drop what they were doing and immediately follow Him?

Did any who Jesus called to follow Him choose not to ?

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Did any who followed Jesus for a time stop following Him at some point ?

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Alex Murphy]

I'm reading the book are you?

You can read?

[Quester]

I'm reading the book are you?

You can read?

How typical ...

If anyone thinks that they represent their theology well (let alone Christ) by making such commentary, I'm afraid that they're sadly mistaken.

[Alex Murphy]

What's called Calvinism doesn't teach an Eschatological viewpoint

Quite true. I've known Calvinists who are pre-Trib, mid-trib, post-Trib, PreMil (and dispy PreMil), AMil, and PostMil. While I would personally argue that the here-and-now portions of Calvinistic theology (covenant-keeping, etc)are at odds with some eschatological views (esp. the PreMil "the church is destined to lose ground" viewpoint), there is nothing in Calvinism as a theological system that demands any particular view of end-times.

Unlike some other systems I know :)

[lockeliberty]

The stumbling block for the Calvinist is the SIMPLICITY OF SALVATION (emphasis mine), so upon rejecting this, a SYSTEM (emphasis mine) has to be constructed whereby salvation is made a mysterious, arcane, incomprehensible decree of God. Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

The stumbling block of Dr Vance and most arminians is KISS (keep it simple and stupid) Christianity.

2 Peter 1:5-
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral exellence, and in your moral exellence, knowledge...

[JohnnyM]

Simple question.

Luke 5 gives us insight into the calling of Jesus Christ to His disciples.

Luke 5
1 Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret;
2 and He saw two boats lying at the edge of the lake; but the fishermen had gotten out of them and were washing their nets.
3 And He got into one of the boats, which was Simon's, and asked him to put out a little way from the land. And He sat down and began teaching the people from the boat.
4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, "Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch."
5 Simon answered and said, "Master, we worked hard all night and caught nothing, but I will do as You say and let down the nets."
6 When they had done this, they enclosed a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break;
7 so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink.
8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet, saying, "Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!"
9 For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken;
10 and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men."
11 When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.

Here we see Peter realizing he is a sinner. It is after this event that he follows Jesus. Very similar in respect to Adam seeing his nakedness and then seeing his need for covering. Also, these men were not unaware of who Jesus was.

We read in John 1:
35 Again the next day John was standing with two of his disciples,
36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"
37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them, "What do you seek?" They said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?"
39 He said to them, "Come, and you will see." So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ).
42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).
43 The next day He purposed to go into Galilee, and He found Philip. And Jesus said to him, "Follow Me."

So Peter and the others knew that Jesus was claimed to be the Lamb of God and the Messiah prior to their calling. So their did appear to be some thought or at least ideas concerning Jesus and who He was.

JM

[RnMomof7]

The doctrine of calvinism is opposed to and is an attack on the true and simple Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is heretical to teach that God, in eternity past, without respect to any decision which He foreknew that we would make, appointed some people to go to Heaven and predestined others to go to Hell. In I John 2:2 the Bible says, "He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"

Not only OURS (the Jews) but the whole world (all the non Jewish world)

And actually Mack, Luther (the father of the reformation) would have called you a heretic .

Mack if God foreknows who will accept Christ then why does he create the men that will refuse Him to go to hell?

[RnMomof7]

Mack I had that book 5 years ago, I have read it and used it's observations to "fight" with the Calvinists.

This man is only as "credible " as you choose to make him.When I sat down and really READ the bible, not skipping over or making excuses for the hard verses that teach election I realized that God is indeed sovereign.

This mans work is less credible that the works of Spurgeon , Edwards, Bottner, Piper,Sproul etc.

His is not a scholarly book , but a book with an agenda . He mis reads some scripture to make his point...some thing that someone that only has a Sunday interest in the Bible will surely miss

One more thing Mack, Far fewer Calvinists move to Arminianism than Arminians move to Calvinism. That is because serious study (not cutting and pasting work that agrees with you ) will bring one to see the truth.

[RnMomof7]

God foreknew me before the world began and He foreknew that I would believe in Him, that does not mean that He made the decision for me, which is why I cannot buy a vowel ksen :)

If our election is based on Gods foreknowledge and he REALLY DESIRES all men to be saved without exception, why did He not see to it that they were given the amount of grace necessary to believe?

We have to conclude that it was never His plan or desire that all men without exception be saved..for if God desires to do something He will.

Creation is not all about men , or God being lonely and needing company . Creation and man was purposed for His Glory . Gods holiness is vindicated by His judgment, God is glorified in His Justice AND His mercy.

Without Judgment there is no such thing as mercy , they are different sides of the same coin. God will be glorified on the day that the reprobates are judged ...that is why God NEVER desired or intended for all men everywhere to be saved..It makes void His holiness.

One of the main "problems" with Arminian Theology is it makes God a puppet of men. He MUST respond to the overture of men , He must save them, He has no FREE WILL in the matter. Mans will is sovereign over Gods. Does God have no choice on whom He will have as an adopted son? Or as we see here , does the adoptive father select his children

There is one more point that I find of interest , that is the majority of Free will Baptists and many Arminians believe that God removed that precious free will from them when they were saved..they suddenly have no choice in the matter and are forced to go to heaven if they want it or not. How unfair of Him huh ?

[RnMomof7]

I don't see those who share my perspective telling people it doesn't matter what they do. I see those opposed to my side telling others that based on my views it doesn't matter.

Good post Kevin . The truth is they do not understand the responsibility one feels when they know that their salvation is 100% a gift. It changes the relationship one has with God and the Gospel completely.

The desire to see that God's word is held close and that we be obedient to the gospel's commands .