The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[Elsie]

The KJV and JST (and NASB and RSV) are not the same. They do not modify each other, nor do they modify the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts. They are separate books on the shelf.

 

All of our modern translations are based upon being able to understand the ancient documents and put their words and ideas into a format that people unlearned in the old language can then understand. 

 

Did Joseph Smith have the ability to understand the old documents? 

Did he work from them to create the JST?

How can the real differences between the JST and the KJV be defended today? 

Will a future (or present) LDS' living prophet ever finish the work the JS began?

 

[Elsie]

A cubit??

 

 

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app51.html says.....

1. Cubit. Length still in dispute.
   1. Hebrew 'ammah. Ranging between 21 and 25 inches
   2. Hebrew yomed (only in Judges 3:16)

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http://www.world-destiny.org/Cubit%20Rod%20Assessment.htm says.....

 

...the Egyptian cubit of 20.625 inches 

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http://www.cottonfarming.com/home/2002_JanCF-MeasuringFiber.html says.....

 

Noah the ark builder used cubits to measure his boat. A cubit was the length from the tip of a man's middle finger to his elbow, or 17 to 22 inches, depending on what size man the arm was attached to.

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http://www.opticaldisc-systems.com/2002JanFeb/CALIBRATION90.htm

 

 

 

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For example, Goliath's height in 1 Samuel 17:4 varies from four cubits and a span (about six feet) in a Qumran manuscript to six cubits and a span (about nine feet) in the Masoretic text 1000 years later. The story grew in the recopying!

The next passage [1 Samuel 17:3-6] illustrates how ancient narratives sometimes grew at the hand of narrators or scribes. 4QSam(a) gives the height of Goliath as "four cubits" (equaling about six feet), and this is what the original Septuagint, followed by the historian Josephus, also records. Later Septuagint manuscripts read "five cubits", and the Masoretic Text, followed by yet later Septuagint manuscripts, reads "six cubits" (equaling about nine feet).

 

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So using these various values, one can see that the various heights given in various versions of the story can certainly be explained...

 

17     * 6 cubits =  102     inches tall.......

20.625 * 5 cubits =  103.125 inches tall.......

25     * 4 cubits =  100     inches tall.......

 

There is surely not much difference here!!

[White Mountain]

Your #401: Did Joseph Smith have the ability to understand the old documents?

Yes, I think that is clear from his famous 1844 sermons.

>> Did he work from them to create the JST?

I am sure he did, but the emphasis was on receiving revelation from heaven concerning various passages of the Bible.

>> How can the real differences between the JST and the KJV be defended today?

Except for the JST of the first few chapters of Genesis and a chapter of Matthew, which are canonized and in the Pearl of Great Price, the JST is an unfinished work and presumably not ready for publication, although the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ), which owns the manuscript (because Emma kept it after Joseph's death) published it anyway as their Inspired Version.

So I don't "defend" the uncanonized JST. Sometimes I share interesting insights from it, but I leave it at that. I stick to the Scriptures.

>> Will a future (or present) LDS' living prophet ever finish the work the JS began?

Perhaps, or maybe it will be the Brass Plates of Laban, containing roughly Genesis to Jeremiah, that will be translated one day.

1 Nephi 5:17-19
17 And now when my father saw all these things, he was filled with the Spirit, and began to prophesy concerning his seed—
18 That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed.
19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.

[White Mountain]

Your #402:

Somehow, I don't think the manuscript copyists were increasing the number of cubits because they thought the size of each cubit was decreasing.

[Elsie]

Perhaps, or maybe it will be the Brass Plates of Laban, containing roughly Genesis to Jeremiah, that will be translated one day.

Where are these and how do we know what they refer to?

[White Mountain]

Your #405: Where are these and how do we know what they refer to?

They are doubtless in the same place where the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated are kept -- by the angel who took them back from Joseph Smith when he was done -- and just as inaccessable to us.

Though the originals of the books of the Bible are no longer extant, you may be sure that God has them, and has the ability, when He will, to restore them to the earth as He did the Book of Mormon. How? Through His living prophet.

God gives more light to those who are faithful with the light they already have.

There is another record which will come forth again some day. (Read the whole chapter and the end of the preceding one.)

But the world will just scoff at it and try to disprove it and say there cannot be any more Scripture, and so the Lord is holding it back right now.

[Elsie]

But the world will just scoff at it and try to disprove it and say there cannot be any more Scripture, and so the Lord is holding it back right now.

So HE'll release it when mere men no longer scoff??

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Are your temple ceremonies unscriptural??

I can't find them anywhere in your scriptures........

[White Mountain]

Your #407: So HE'll release it when mere men no longer scoff??

This will give you an idea:

Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 26:6-11
6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;
7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.
8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.
9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

[Elsie]

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people. I>

Interesting..... compared to this:

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James 1:12-14
12. Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14. but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

[White Mountain]

Your #409:

Do you know the difference between Satan's temptations trying our faith and when the Lord tries our faith to make it stronger? The trial of our faith means we are presented with a choice, and depending on the choice we make, our faith and our character becomes stronger or weaker. It is a part of the sanctification process for those who choose well (see James 1:4 below), but the lives of those who choose evil are destroyed by their destructive choices.

Yielding to the temptations of Satan, refusing to live by the light and Scripture that God has sent into the world, gives him power over you and makes you weaker.

Resisting temptation, living in accordance with the God-given Scriptures that are presented to you, makes you stronger, weakens Satan's power over you, and prepares you to receive more light.

The Lord tried the faith of Abraham when He commanded him to offer Isaac, the son of promise that he had waited a hundred years for. Abraham knew firsthand the horrid evil of human sacrifice, but he was obedient, knowing that the Lord had a good and righteous purpose in mind, but not knowing what it was. The angel stopped the knife, and it was accounted unto Abraham for righteousness.

(Now if the god the Calvinists propose had asked Abraham to do this, Abraham could not have known whether this was for good or evil.)

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Book of Mormon, Jacob 4:5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son. (about 500 BC)

James 1:2-6
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

[Ephesians210]

Why is it that the manuscript Joseph Smith "translated" from "Reformed Egyptian"(a language no egyptologist or linguist says exists), ie-"The Book of Abraham", as the story goes, Joseph Smith claimed was written by Abraham's own hand, roughly in 1500BC, was redicovered and translated by genuine scholars in Egyptian hieroglyphs, it was found to be an ordinary funery document for a mid level Egyptian bureacrat dated around 200 years BC, and contained roughly 90 words, having nothing to do with Abraham?

[Ephesians210]

RE: Are your temple ceremonies unscriptural?? I can't find them anywhere in your scriptures........

I can't either. Have you tried Free Masons materials? I found them there.

[Ephesians210]

RE:Answer me this, Elsie. Did Jesus Christ visit His "other sheep" in the Americas as the Book of Mormon testifies, and teach the people all those things that are written therein?

No, Jesus Christ did not visit "other sheep" in the Americas, and Native Americans are not the descendants of Semites or any "other manner of ites"(to quote Joseph Smith), they are descendants of Mongols, and the DNA tests prove it. BTW, the Native Americans who did convert to Mormonism did not turn white as the BOM first said they would, that is, before the LDS changed the wording, to say, "fair", instead of the original word, "white".....BTW, another what if here;
IF the BOM was the most perfect book on earth as Joseph Smith and Mormons claimed, why did it have to be altered, spellings corrected and changed so many times. Didn't the peep stones Joseph used to interpret the plates get it right the first time?

The whole thing was a hoax, a piece of fiction Smith stole from others and then plagerized the KJV, or wrote his fiction copying King James English.

You have been duped by a con artist named Joseph Smith.

[Ephesians210]

RE: The Book of Mormon people were Israelites.

Conclusive DNA testing proves that the Native Americans were not "Israelites" or "any other manner of ites", but are of Mongol descent.

No esoteric experience can change objective truth.

[White Mountain]

Answered here

[Fester Chugabrew]

One piece of the stone from which Christ descended into heaven.

Something is just not right here.