The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[drstevej]

This collection of relics, collected by Elector Frederick and catalogued by Lucas Cranach, supposedly offered the pilgrim a potential 1,902,202 days of indulgence (Hillerbrand, p. 18).

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[Gamecock]

What?

What about the most important relic?

[drstevej]

Jude24: You said, on another thread...

***Using a medieval superstition (which I doubt was ever official Catholic dogma, and probably very few still believe it anymore) to try to discredit Catholicism is a cheap shot, and doesn't really prove anything.***

Perhaps this thread is a better place to discuss the issue of relics. The topic was certainly not irrelevant to the beginning of the Reformation. Indeed, many of Luther's 95 Theses [1517] address what he believed to be abuses of relics and indulgences. This concern led to a biblical reassessment of the myriad of religious practices that surrounded him.

Perhaps the particular relic(s) of the Holy Prepuce is not in vogue today, but the issue or relics is hardly moot. The plethora of relics and aparitions are "devotions" which are no less and issue between Protestants and Catholics then as now.

As Protestants we affirm Sola Scriptura and reject "Holy Tradition" which brings with it the superstition of aparitions and relic veneration.

[drstevej]

While in Rome in 1974 I saw the Scala Sancta (Holy Stairs)
Consisting of twenty-eight white marble steps which according to tradition was the staircase leading once to the prætorium of Pilate at Jerusalem. The Catholic Encyclopedia says they were sanctified by the footsteps of Our Lord during his Passion.

I saw an elderly lady on all fours ascending the stairs slowly kissing the steps. I do not know what was in her mind and heart, she certainly looked sincere. I was reminded of another incident many years prior...

"An errand to Rome shook [Luther] further. He did not notice the glories of the Renaissance or the reminders of antiquity: instead, he saw the worldliness and levity of the clergy, both high and low. He climbed the Scala Sancta, 28 stairs, with a Pater Noster and a kiss on each in order to release a soul from purgatory, and at the top he found his faith in the indulgence clouded by doubt."

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/luther...html

[Desdemona]

Two pieces of the cloth which St Veronica received from the Lord.

Uh, Veronica was canonized? She wiped His face and the imprint of his face was left on it (that's tradition with a capital T). That's one piece of cloth and if I'm not mistaken it disappeared.

Steve, the sacred relics are things like the Crown of Thorns which is at Notre Dame in Paris. The Cathedral here has a piece of the True Cross and a relic of St. Louis, King of France. They aren't worshiped, but they are tangible connections to the past. Collections like the one you describe are not normal, but they are the result of quests of true faith.

Apparitions are a different kettle of fish. There are enough reports of them and enough miracles involved to make their existence real. It just hasn't happen to you. Me neither. That doesn't mean they aren't real. Anything is possible with God.

[drstevej]

Thanks for your input Desdemona. We disagree, but hey that's OK.

[Gamecock]

They aren't worshiped, but they are tangible connections to the past<.i>

Isn't that what scripture is for?

[Desdemona]

Scripture is our guide. Not that this isn't a link to the part, but it's not the same as something one can touch.

[drstevej]

Are not relics more than a link with the past? Do you not believe their veneration produces spiritual merit?

Does this kind of thing bother you?

[Gamecock]

Discount Catholic Store?

[Desdemona]

Do you not believe their veneration produces spiritual merit?

I haven't really thought about it. I believe in the miracles associated with them. The realization that anything is possible with God kind of overshadows anything else.

As for things like Lourdes water and Knock water, etc., no, it doesn't bother me. They are the places of miracles. I grew up with this sort of thing, so....

[Desdemona]

Discount Catholic Store?

There's bigger ones than this.

[drstevej]

***I haven't really thought about it.***

What does your church teach?

[Desdemona]

What does your church teach?

About what, relics? I've never heard anything having to do with indulgences, if that's what you are asking. Well, maybe a plenerary, but that requires conditions.

You use the example in prayer. Like, Lord, Jesus Christ, as water sprang forth, thus curing St. Bernadette at Lourdes, so I humbly pray to be healed. I ask St. Bernadette and all the angels to pray for my healing, if it be Your Will.

Being in the presence of the relic may give added weight, but in the end, all is done according to His Will. Nothing changes that.

[AlguyA]

"Are not relics more than a link with the past? Do you not believe their veneration produces spiritual merit?"

Yes, relics are more than links with the past and, yes, their proper veneration MAY produce spiritual merit. As with much of Catholicism, relics engage our senses, physically bringing us into contact with either a saint or Our Lord, thus drawing us deeper into the communion of saints which constitutes the Body of Christ. There is a great deal more "physicallity" in Catholicism, all of which helps the believer to be drawn further into the mystery of the Incarnation -the central Truth of all salvation history.

[xJones]

the sacred relics are things like the Crown of Thorns which is at Notre Dame in Paris. The Cathedral here has a piece of the True Cross and a relic of St. Louis, King of France. They aren't worshiped, but they are tangible connections to the past. Collections like the one you describe are not normal, but they are the result of quests of true faith.

Any authenic relic from the life of Christ would be of great historical interest. To paraphrase from Indiana Jones - The Last Crusade, "This belongs in a museum or a cathedral!".

An obvious problem arises in the utter implausiblity of so many of the acclaimed relics, which must bother many Catholics. So much has been the obvious work of hucksters, such as the multiple skulls of John the Baptist present at the same time in history in various parts of medieval Europe. From the Catholic Digest: Relics for Sale.

A quest for the true faith shouldn't mean being side-tracked by very dubious artifacts and bones alleged to be from 2000 years ago. Wood, cloth, and thorns don't hold up that well, particularly when being handled by unknown people while being passed around (presumably) the Holy Land and then in Europe.

But the big point is in the words of our Lord to Thomas: "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". Relicts don't really help in Christian faith, either you believe already or you don't. And bogus relics are a credit only to the irreligious ancestors of P.T. Barnum, with their religious suckers born every minute. (It would be interesting to carbon age date the crown of thorns in Notre Dame.)

Yes, with God all things are possible. He made the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars, but His only Son said it was more blessed to believe without seeing physical proof.

[Desdemona]

Obviously, there are people who have hawked fake relics over the years. It still happens today. Ever watch the Antiques Road show? A collection of authentically fake relics would be interesting....

In the case of the real relics, i.e., the Crown of Thorns, The Shoud of Turin, the True Cross...all have been known for centuries and should have disintigrated by now. Why haven't they? The Crown of Thorns was brought to Paris as a result of a crusade, if I'm not mistaken. The French will tell you they stole it. At least they are honest about it.

It's a stroke of God's Will to see and know relics. True, not everyone has the privilege. That should not and does not change faith. In fact people have more faith in God than the relics. Imagine that.

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

You are correct "Blessed are they who can believe without seeing." That is most important here.

No doubt fake relics continue to tarnish Christianity's reputation and from my vantage point Christians should be wary, but this is a cross-denominational problem too. I have received letters from popular TV minister with enclosed prayer cloth that supposedly he touched and has God's power etc...

There was that Bible story about a woman who touched Jesus' cloak and either she or her child was healed that instant. Now it wasn't the power of the cloak but of her faith in Him who wore it.

There are genuine relics. Myself, I wouldn't know a fraud from the real and thus am skeptical in most cases. Belief in any relic isn't as far as I am aware required for salvation. But, would any Christian not want to show respect for something of his Savior or one of his Apostles, if he could know it was real?

Out of charity for our fellow Christians, we ought not to cast aspersions on those who seem to favor relics. It would be our duty though as XJones has done to gently remind them if their zeal becomes excessive so as to erase more important parts of the Christian faith:

More important though: Blessed are those who believe without seeing.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Here again I see the words "supposedly" and "probably". Where are these alleged relics? Why aren't they under lock and key? If any of these alleged relics were real the Vatican would have taken them away for safe keeping.

St. Helena had a vision of where the Cross of Christ was buried. She made a pilgrimage there and indeed found a large wooden cross buried. The sick who touched the relic were immediately cured of their illnesses. The Cross was taken back to the Vatican where it is today under lock and key. Few know the actual location as prevention against theft. Periodically the relic is taken out and tiny splinters are removed and placed in metal crucifixes. These are extremely difficult to obtain and are mostly given to exorcists to assist them in their work and Churches for veneration.

Again, I know nothing of these alleged relics. If they were real they would not be sitting in a Church in Germany and certainly not lost.

What's with the current jihad against Catholics? Don't you have a sermon to prepare for tomorrow?