The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[drstevej]

Source: Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed. The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants (Harper and Row, Inc. 1964, Reprint Baker Book House, 1978) pp. 47-49.

The Castle Church at Wittenberg, where Luther probably posted his ninety-five theses, was famous for its extensive collection of relics, as the following excerpt from what might be called the official catalogue's shows.

... Three pieces of the city where the Virgin Mary was born. One piece of a yarn which she spun. One piece of the house where she lived at the age of fourteen. Two pieces of the city of Mt Zion where Mary lived. Two pieces of the room where Mary was greeted by the angel. Five particles of the milk of the Virgin Mary. One piece of the tree where Mary nursed the Lord near the Garden of Balsam. Four pieces of the hair of Mary. Three pieces of the shirt of Mary. Three pieces of one robe of Mary. Eight pieces of other robes of Mary. Four pieces of the belt of Mary. Seven pieces of the veil of Mary. Two pieces of the veil of Mary which was sprinkled with the blood of Christ under the Cross. One piece of the city where Mary died. One piece of the wax candle given to Our Lady when she died. Six pieces of the grave of Mary. Two pieces of the earth of the grave of Mary. One piece of the place where Mary ascended into heaven. VI. A silver picture of the little baby Jesus. Four pieces of the city where the Lord Jesus was born. One piece of the diaper in which he was wrapped. Thirteen pieces of the manger of Jesus. One piece of the cradle. Two pieces of the hay. One piece of the straw on which the Lord lay when he was born. One piece of the gold and of the myrrh which the Three Kings offered unto the Lord. One piece of the city where the Lord Jesus was circumcised. VII. Four pieces of the mountain on which the Lord Jesus fasted. Two pieces of the city where Christ preached the Lord's Prayer. One piece of the stone on which Jesus stood while weeping over Jerusalem. One piece of the stone from which Christ got on the donkey. Two pieces of the ground where the Lord Christ was arrested. VIII.... Five pieces of the table on which the Lord Christ held the Last Supper with his disciples. One piece of the bread of which Christ ate with his disciples during the Last Supper. IX.... One piece of the land which was bought for the thirty pieces of silver for which Christ was betrayed. One piece of the Holy Land. Three pieces of the stone where the Lord sweated blood. One piece of the ground where the Lord sweated blood. One piece of the stone sprinkled with the blood of Christ. X. Three pieces of the Mount of Olives and of the rod of Aaron. Two pieces of the rod of Moses. One piece of the burning bush which Moses saw. One piece of an object sprinkled with the blood of Christ. Eleven pieces of Mount Calvary. Two pieces of the Mount of Olives. XI. One piece of the cloth with which the Lord wiped his disciples' feet. One piece of the robe of Christ: One piece of the seamless robe of Christ. One piece of the robe of Christ. One piece of his purple robe. Two pieces of the cloth which St Veronica received from the Lord. Three pieces of the white robe in which the Lord was ridiculed by Herod . Three pieces of the cloth with which our Lord's holy eyes were blindfolded. One piece of the beard of the Lord Jesus. XII. One piece of the wax of the candles which touched the sudarium of Christ. One piece of the wedge with which the cross of Christ was held. Three pieces of the stone on which the cross stood. Three pieces of the place where the cross of Christ was found. Twelve pieces of the column where the Lord Christ was scourged and flogged.

The Eight Aisle. I. One piece of the rope with which Jesus was tied. Three pieces of the rod with which the Lord Jesus was scourged. Three pieces of the whip with which the Lord Jesus was flogged. One piece of the stone upon which the Lord Jesus sat when he was crowned. One piece of the stone which was crushed while the Lord carried the cross. One piece of the sponge with which the Lord was given vinegar and gall.... III. Two pieces of the crown of the Lord Jesus. Eight complete thorns of the crown of the Lord Jesus. IV. One large piece of one nail which was driven through the hands or feet of the Lord Jesus. V. A thorn which wounded the holy head of the Lord Jesus. VI. One piece of the holy cross.... VII. Three pieces of the holy cross. VIII. Three pieces of the three kinds of wood of the cross of Christ. IX. A particularly large piece from the holy cross. X. Twenty-five pieces of the holy cross. XI. One piece of the stone which lay on the grave of Christ. Twenty-two pieces of the grave of Christ. One piece of the stone from which Christ descended into heaven. XII. A casket lined with silver in which are found sixteen hundred and seventy-eight pieces. Seventy-six pieces of holy remains. Bones from holy places which on account of faded writing can no longer be read and identified. All in all : five thousand and five pieces. An indulgence of one hundred days for each piece. There are eight halls and each hall has an indulgence of one hundred and one days in addition. Blessed are those who participate therein.

Lucas Cranach, Wittemberger Heiligthumsbuch.

[rwfromkansas]

A list of official church records is hit piece?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

There's one glaring difference in your Catholic jihad: Catholics did not follow corrupt clergy into heresy. We condemn them.

Protestants embraced Luther and his revolutionary views.

Ready for some more quotes from the "Christian" Luther?

[rwfromkansas]

Drsteve a Lutheran? That's funny!

He is a Calvinist. Calvinists aren't Lutherans.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I question the veracity of the list. It doesn't appear valid, not that that stops anyone here.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

On Sin

Christ: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication . . . murder . . . and suchlike. And concerning these I warn you, they who do such things will not attain the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

Luther: "Sin boldly but believe more boldly. Let your faith be greater than your sin . . . Sin will not destroy us in the reign of the Lamb, although we were to commit fornication a thousand times in one day." (Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, Audin p. 178)

Tell me again why I should believe in Luther's "Sola Scriptura"?

[drstevej]

***You call bigamy Biblical?***

Perhaps you missed this an earlier post

Post #27 (drstevej) ***Luther's error regarding Phillip of Hesse is unrelated to this thread or topic.***

I labeled his counsel error. You call it "molesting women"? Does your conscience bother you? Have any evidence he was ever unfaithful to Katie or unchaste as a priest?

I prefer Luther's error to that of Cardinal Law. He certainly was no John Geoghan.

***Tell me, what's the difference between Martin Luther and Joseph Smith?***

Nice try, not biting.

[drstevej]

***I question the veracity of the list. It doesn't appear valid, not that that stops anyone here.***

Question it if you wish. There is no rational basis to do so. FACTS sometimes sting don't they.

Do you question that Popes had illegitimate kids too?

[drstevej]

***Catholics did not follow corrupt clergy into heresy. We condemn them. ***

Archbishop Mahoney

[drstevej]

Hans J. Hillerbrand

Hans holds the Ph.D. from the University of Erlangen in Germany; has served on the faculties of Duke, City University of NY, and Southern Methodist and has held visiting appointments at three universities in Germany and one in Canada. He has held a number of administrative appointments as well, having served as chair of the Religion Department and as Interim Dean of Arts and Sciences at Duke, where he continues to hold a faculty appointment, and as Provost at Southern Methodist and Dean of Graduate Studies and Provost at CUNY.

His record of scholarship is truly impressive. He has published 15 books, most of which are about the Protestant Reformation; more than 50 articles; and well over 100 book reviews. He also serves as co-editor of the journal Church History and is serving or has served on the editorial boards of the Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies, the Journal of the History of Ideas, and Sixteenth Century Journal. His academic stature is further reflected by his current or previous membership on the governing boards of the American Academy of Religion, the Renaissance Society of America, and the Center for Reformation Research. He is the immediate past president of the American Society of Church History.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

A bump for the 29th step.

All "relics" and their veneration are a blasphemy to God.

The Holy Spirit is our only "relic," ever present, ever new, ever faithful.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Being in the presence of the relic may give added weight...

And here bloomed the Reformation.

[redgolum]

Luther did say that bigamy was not expressly forbidden, and therefore at least OK in some situations. Not a view that I agree with, or one that his contemporaries (or wife for that matter) agreed with. Luther took that from the fact that many of the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, David, Solomon, and the had multiple wives. The interesting thing is that Luther often commented that taking two wives would be a lot more trouble than one man should look for. As for the list of relics, it wouldn't surprise me. Relics were big in the middle ages, and many operated without the official sanction of Rome.

He did have a drinking problem, and was found of beer. He was also given to fits of depression. In other words, he was human. A sinner, and not infallible.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Luther took that from the fact that many of the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, David, Solomon, and the had multiple wives.

Yes, but that was not sanctioned by God. Adam had one wife. His descendants took it upon themselves to give themselves more. Sarah herself gave Hagar to Abraham. God did not. God never sanctioned polygamy.

The Old Testament corruption is also the rationale Mormons use for polygamy.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Have any evidence he was ever unfaithful to Katie or unchaste as a priest?

Luther: "Why do I sit soaked in wine? . . . To be continent and chaste is not in me." (Luther's Diary)

helloooooooo..........???

***Tell me, what's the difference between Martin Luther and Joseph Smith?***

Nice try, not biting.

I can see why.

[drstevej]

***To be continent and chaste is not in me***

Please provide quote in context. Sounds like a bladder problem.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

There are no facts here. If these alleged relics were real they would be sitting in Rome today.

Do you think Maria Monk was a great author too? Hey, I heard a Pentecostal say the nuns used to wear big robes to hide all their pregnancies, then they killed the babies and hid the bodies in the basement. Why don't you spread that rumor around today?

Sure some Popes had illegitimate kids. They were condemned. Sure Mahony is a heretic. He is condemned. The problem with Luther is that he was a heretic who denied the words of Christ and preached a false gospel. He was condemned by the Church but embraced by Protestants. Why do you think a man who says the things I've quoted is qualified to lead a Christian revolution?

I hear much about the errors of Catholicism but I've yet to hear the truth of Protestantism. The biggest claim to fame seems to be that you're not Catholics. Neither are Mormons (of whom you have more in common than you want to admit).

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Very funny. Nice try at diversion. It didn't work.

[drstevej]

***Sure Mahony is a heretic. He is condemned. ***

Excuse me, I thought he was still an Archbishop in your church. Heretics can be archbishops?

***I hear much about the errors of Catholicism but I've yet to hear the truth of Protestantism.***

Either too much ear wax or spiritual blindness.

***If these alleged relics were real they would be sitting in Rome today.***

Who said they were real, not me. I said they were presented as such by your church. Indulgences were offered for venerating them.

Are all real relics in Rome today? I didn't think so.

***Why do you think a man who says the things I've quoted is qualified to lead a Christian revolution? ***

Still waiting for context. Luther was hardly the sole leaders. In fact your Erasmus publication of the Greek New Testament was a tremendous help.

Look up Julius Exclusus by Erasmus. Hear his concern about abuses at the era of Luther.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Heretics can be Popes.

As to your next further insult, I'll take that as no response to my point.

I've already questioned the veracity of this list and told you why.

If you want to play 'context' with Luther's obvious statements, you've lost. The man believed in bigamy. Accept it.

[drstevej]

***If you want to play 'context' with Luther's obvious statements, you've lost. The man believed in bigamy. Accept it.***

Wake up. I already acknowledge he counseled for bigamy. It's the claim hr was unfaithful to Katie I ask you to document. You pull a half dozen words outr of context and charge a person with adultery. What's zup wit dat?

***Heretics can be Popes.***

You ain't seen nothing yet...

- Pope Piel I