The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[drstevej]

Source: Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed. The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants (Harper and Row, Inc. 1964, Reprint Baker Book House, 1978) pp. 47-49.

The Castle Church at Wittenberg, where Luther probably posted his ninety-five theses, was famous for its extensive collection of relics, as the following excerpt from what might be called the official catalogue's shows.

... Three pieces of the city where the Virgin Mary was born. One piece of a yarn which she spun. One piece of the house where she lived at the age of fourteen. Two pieces of the city of Mt Zion where Mary lived. Two pieces of the room where Mary was greeted by the angel. Five particles of the milk of the Virgin Mary. One piece of the tree where Mary nursed the Lord near the Garden of Balsam. Four pieces of the hair of Mary. Three pieces of the shirt of Mary. Three pieces of one robe of Mary. Eight pieces of other robes of Mary. Four pieces of the belt of Mary. Seven pieces of the veil of Mary. Two pieces of the veil of Mary which was sprinkled with the blood of Christ under the Cross. One piece of the city where Mary died. One piece of the wax candle given to Our Lady when she died. Six pieces of the grave of Mary. Two pieces of the earth of the grave of Mary. One piece of the place where Mary ascended into heaven. VI. A silver picture of the little baby Jesus. Four pieces of the city where the Lord Jesus was born. One piece of the diaper in which he was wrapped. Thirteen pieces of the manger of Jesus. One piece of the cradle. Two pieces of the hay. One piece of the straw on which the Lord lay when he was born. One piece of the gold and of the myrrh which the Three Kings offered unto the Lord. One piece of the city where the Lord Jesus was circumcised. VII. Four pieces of the mountain on which the Lord Jesus fasted. Two pieces of the city where Christ preached the Lord's Prayer. One piece of the stone on which Jesus stood while weeping over Jerusalem. One piece of the stone from which Christ got on the donkey. Two pieces of the ground where the Lord Christ was arrested. VIII.... Five pieces of the table on which the Lord Christ held the Last Supper with his disciples. One piece of the bread of which Christ ate with his disciples during the Last Supper. IX.... One piece of the land which was bought for the thirty pieces of silver for which Christ was betrayed. One piece of the Holy Land. Three pieces of the stone where the Lord sweated blood. One piece of the ground where the Lord sweated blood. One piece of the stone sprinkled with the blood of Christ. X. Three pieces of the Mount of Olives and of the rod of Aaron. Two pieces of the rod of Moses. One piece of the burning bush which Moses saw. One piece of an object sprinkled with the blood of Christ. Eleven pieces of Mount Calvary. Two pieces of the Mount of Olives. XI. One piece of the cloth with which the Lord wiped his disciples' feet. One piece of the robe of Christ: One piece of the seamless robe of Christ. One piece of the robe of Christ. One piece of his purple robe. Two pieces of the cloth which St Veronica received from the Lord. Three pieces of the white robe in which the Lord was ridiculed by Herod . Three pieces of the cloth with which our Lord's holy eyes were blindfolded. One piece of the beard of the Lord Jesus. XII. One piece of the wax of the candles which touched the sudarium of Christ. One piece of the wedge with which the cross of Christ was held. Three pieces of the stone on which the cross stood. Three pieces of the place where the cross of Christ was found. Twelve pieces of the column where the Lord Christ was scourged and flogged.

The Eight Aisle. I. One piece of the rope with which Jesus was tied. Three pieces of the rod with which the Lord Jesus was scourged. Three pieces of the whip with which the Lord Jesus was flogged. One piece of the stone upon which the Lord Jesus sat when he was crowned. One piece of the stone which was crushed while the Lord carried the cross. One piece of the sponge with which the Lord was given vinegar and gall.... III. Two pieces of the crown of the Lord Jesus. Eight complete thorns of the crown of the Lord Jesus. IV. One large piece of one nail which was driven through the hands or feet of the Lord Jesus. V. A thorn which wounded the holy head of the Lord Jesus. VI. One piece of the holy cross.... VII. Three pieces of the holy cross. VIII. Three pieces of the three kinds of wood of the cross of Christ. IX. A particularly large piece from the holy cross. X. Twenty-five pieces of the holy cross. XI. One piece of the stone which lay on the grave of Christ. Twenty-two pieces of the grave of Christ. One piece of the stone from which Christ descended into heaven. XII. A casket lined with silver in which are found sixteen hundred and seventy-eight pieces. Seventy-six pieces of holy remains. Bones from holy places which on account of faded writing can no longer be read and identified. All in all : five thousand and five pieces. An indulgence of one hundred days for each piece. There are eight halls and each hall has an indulgence of one hundred and one days in addition. Blessed are those who participate therein.

Lucas Cranach, Wittemberger Heiligthumsbuch.

[CARepubGal]

Naah. Relics are sort of fascinating to Proddies in a wierd way. It sort of works for us like this:

CRG and Apostolic Prod friend in restaurant in So Cal (Mexican food with some seriously unhealthy but oh so tasty delights). On the walls are the rather bloody pictures of Our Lord Crucified. Apostolic friend: "He is OFF THE CROSS already! Take Him down!" Me: :-) Seriously, it seems (from our perspective) like some of the relics are keeping the Savior ON the cross, not as the Risen Lord. Again it is a perception thing. :-) Hope that helps a little.

[drstevej]

***What's with the current jihad against Catholics?***

No jihad. No more than Luther's 95 Theses were a jihad. Both are points for debate. BTW, have I said anything against a Catholic? I have questioned Catholic practice and tradition. Why do you consider that a jihad?

***Don't you have a sermon to prepare for tomorrow?***

Nope. Off this week.

Why does this historically oriented thread offend you? Are you questioniang Nicholas Cranach's integrity in cataloguing the relics of Wittenburg? Are you questioning Hillerbrand's integrity in his book.

[drstevej]

In its new site the Scala Sancta is flanked by four other stairs, two on each side, for common use, since the Holy Stairs may only be ascended on the knees, a devotion much in favour with pilgrims and the Roman faithful, especially on Fridays and in Lent. Not a few popes are recorded to have performed this pious exercise; Pius IX, who in 1853 entrusted the Passionist Fathers with the care of the sanctuary, ascended the Holy Stairs on 19 Sept., 1870, the eve of the entrance of the Piedmontese into Rome. Pius VII on 2 Sept., 1817 granted those who ascend the stairs in the prescribed manner an indulgence of nine years for every step.

Source

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

An errand to Rome shook [Luther] further. He did not notice the glories of the Renaissance or the reminders of antiquity: instead, he saw the worldliness and levity of the clergy, both high and low.

Luther had his own worldliness to worry about:

"As to divorce, it is still a moot question whether it is allowable. For my part, I prefer bigamy." (De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459)

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

It's not history. It's a hit piece.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Yes, I am questioning the integrity of those men. Did you miss the words "supposedly" and "probably" peppered throughout the piece?

Their allegations defy logic.

[drstevej]

I am tempted to cry "JIHAD."

Instead, I say, Luther's error regarding Phillip of Hesse is unrelated to this thread or topic. A lovely red herring.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Christ on the Cross is the salvatory act. We would never take Christ off the Cross. Portrayals of such border on blasphemy. We have images of the resurrected Christ. Those two events are portrayed separately.

[drstevej]

These relics were "marketed" by the Castle Church as genuine and indulgences were associated with their veneration. That is historical fact whether the articles were genuine or not.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I see. When someone questions your sources, particularly the sower of those seeds, it's a "red herring", yet you are free to bad mouth Catholic practice and belief unconditionally.

The source is unreliable, dishonest and from my reading not a terribly Christian guy.

If you want to play you'd better be prepared to defend your own ideologies. I've got several more quotes from Luther, none of which are particularly attractive.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

According to who? The biased author of this hit piece?

Whether this Church promoted questionable relics or not cannot be determined from this piece but certainly there has been corruption throughout history. No one denies that and good Catholics condemn it.

Speaking of corruption, that Luther was a real prize. Are we allowed to talk about that? I'm guessing not.

[xJones]

Out of charity for our fellow Christians, we ought not to cast aspersions on those who seem to favor relics.

You are so right, and it does cross Christian lines. My late Protestant mother used to receive some of the most shameful gimmicks. There was "the red thread", the put-under-your-pillow prayer cloth, etc., and what looked like form letters saying that God had awakened that particular preacher during the night to pray for her. There is at least one company that specializes in such gimmicks and letters,.... but only God will be the judge of those that prey on the innocent and trusting.

[drstevej]

Exactly, protestant gimmics are reprehensible as well. Away with the Benny Hinns and Robert Tiltons and their gimmicry.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Don't know about altar boys but it looks like he molested women:

Christ "Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." (Mark 10:11-12)

Luther:"As to divorce, it is still a moot question whether it is allowable. For my part, I prefer bigamy." (De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459)

Christ: "And do not be drunk with wine, for in that is debauchery." (Ephesians 5:18) "Keep thyself chaste." (I Timothy 5:22)

Luther: "Why do I sit soaked in wine? . . . To be continent and chaste is not in me." (Luther's Diary)

Interesting interpretation of Scripture there.

[drstevej]

Hans Hillerbrand's text is hardly a hit piece. Lucas Cranach, whom he quotes, was a respected citizen of Wittneberg (he served on the council and was mayor) he was the court painter to Frederick, Elector of Saxony.

A genteel artist, whom you consider a hit man for cataloguing the relics of Wittenburg.

[drstevej]

Molested women ???? Hardly.

[CARepubGal]

Thanks. It was kind of wierd placement (and sort of depressing while chomping on a nacho plate) ;-) Sorry the guys are acting like kids. :-(

[drstevej]

***it looks like he molested women***

Perhaps you were thinking of Innocent VIII (1484 - 1492)

Giovanni Battista Cibo was born in Genoa in 1432, the son of a Roman senator. As a young man he was somewhat licentious and had two illegitimate children, Franceschetto and Teodorina. But after young Cibo took orders he settled down. He became bishop of Savona in 1467, and in 1473 exchanged Savona for the see of Olfetta in Naples. He was created cardinal in 1473 by Sixtus IV. He chose the name of Innocent VIII.

or perhaps...

Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503)

Rodrigo Borgia became a priest (1468) but this didn’t prevent him from forming a close relationship with Vanozza de Catanei who, by the way, was already married. Her husband hung on to the relationship until 1476, by which time Vanozza had borne two of the four children she would eventually have with Rodrigo the Cardinal. These were: Giovanni (1474), Cesare (1476), Lucrezia (1480) and Giofre (1481).

Once Rodrigo decided to seek the Papacy he had to dispose of his mistress. So he made a good choice of a husband for her. He didn’t want to discontinue the relationship with Vanozza, only make it discreet so that his chances of becoming Pope wouldn’t be jeopardized. He obviously was concerned with appearances.

[xJones]

Post any Luther quote you want. He isn't my pope. Did Luther molest altar boys?

Well, no, he married an ex-nun. And Luther didn't deny Christ three times like somebody else did.

BTW, I finally saw the movie Luther. I could see why it made the Catholics mad, because Pope Leo X was a real jewel. God's punishment was for sell, and you could buy indulgences to spring even your dear old grannie out of purgutory. Afterall, you wouldn't want grannie to suffer would you? And of course, the proceeds went to Leo's Vatican building projects. (In defense of Leo, though, he was better than the earlier Borgia pope......but I digest.)

It was historically very interesting, so much so that my elderly Episcopalian cousin and I had to keep waking each other up. :)