The relics in at the Wittenburg Castle Church of Luther's Day

The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants | 1964 | Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed.

[rwfromkansas]

A list of official church records is hit piece?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

There's one glaring difference in your Catholic jihad: Catholics did not follow corrupt clergy into heresy. We condemn them.

Protestants embraced Luther and his revolutionary views.

Ready for some more quotes from the "Christian" Luther?

[rwfromkansas]

Drsteve a Lutheran? That's funny!

He is a Calvinist. Calvinists aren't Lutherans.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I question the veracity of the list. It doesn't appear valid, not that that stops anyone here.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

On Sin

Christ: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication . . . murder . . . and suchlike. And concerning these I warn you, they who do such things will not attain the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

Luther: "Sin boldly but believe more boldly. Let your faith be greater than your sin . . . Sin will not destroy us in the reign of the Lamb, although we were to commit fornication a thousand times in one day." (Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, Audin p. 178)

Tell me again why I should believe in Luther's "Sola Scriptura"?

[drstevej]

***You call bigamy Biblical?***

Perhaps you missed this an earlier post

Post #27 (drstevej) ***Luther's error regarding Phillip of Hesse is unrelated to this thread or topic.***

I labeled his counsel error. You call it "molesting women"? Does your conscience bother you? Have any evidence he was ever unfaithful to Katie or unchaste as a priest?

I prefer Luther's error to that of Cardinal Law. He certainly was no John Geoghan.

***Tell me, what's the difference between Martin Luther and Joseph Smith?***

Nice try, not biting.

[drstevej]

***I question the veracity of the list. It doesn't appear valid, not that that stops anyone here.***

Question it if you wish. There is no rational basis to do so. FACTS sometimes sting don't they.

Do you question that Popes had illegitimate kids too?

[drstevej]

***Catholics did not follow corrupt clergy into heresy. We condemn them. ***

Archbishop Mahoney

[drstevej]

Hans J. Hillerbrand

Hans holds the Ph.D. from the University of Erlangen in Germany; has served on the faculties of Duke, City University of NY, and Southern Methodist and has held visiting appointments at three universities in Germany and one in Canada. He has held a number of administrative appointments as well, having served as chair of the Religion Department and as Interim Dean of Arts and Sciences at Duke, where he continues to hold a faculty appointment, and as Provost at Southern Methodist and Dean of Graduate Studies and Provost at CUNY.

His record of scholarship is truly impressive. He has published 15 books, most of which are about the Protestant Reformation; more than 50 articles; and well over 100 book reviews. He also serves as co-editor of the journal Church History and is serving or has served on the editorial boards of the Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies, the Journal of the History of Ideas, and Sixteenth Century Journal. His academic stature is further reflected by his current or previous membership on the governing boards of the American Academy of Religion, the Renaissance Society of America, and the Center for Reformation Research. He is the immediate past president of the American Society of Church History.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

A bump for the 29th step.

All "relics" and their veneration are a blasphemy to God.

The Holy Spirit is our only "relic," ever present, ever new, ever faithful.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Being in the presence of the relic may give added weight...

And here bloomed the Reformation.

[redgolum]

Luther did say that bigamy was not expressly forbidden, and therefore at least OK in some situations. Not a view that I agree with, or one that his contemporaries (or wife for that matter) agreed with. Luther took that from the fact that many of the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, David, Solomon, and the had multiple wives. The interesting thing is that Luther often commented that taking two wives would be a lot more trouble than one man should look for. As for the list of relics, it wouldn't surprise me. Relics were big in the middle ages, and many operated without the official sanction of Rome.

He did have a drinking problem, and was found of beer. He was also given to fits of depression. In other words, he was human. A sinner, and not infallible.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Luther took that from the fact that many of the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, David, Solomon, and the had multiple wives.

Yes, but that was not sanctioned by God. Adam had one wife. His descendants took it upon themselves to give themselves more. Sarah herself gave Hagar to Abraham. God did not. God never sanctioned polygamy.

The Old Testament corruption is also the rationale Mormons use for polygamy.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Have any evidence he was ever unfaithful to Katie or unchaste as a priest?

Luther: "Why do I sit soaked in wine? . . . To be continent and chaste is not in me." (Luther's Diary)

helloooooooo..........???

***Tell me, what's the difference between Martin Luther and Joseph Smith?***

Nice try, not biting.

I can see why.

[drstevej]

***To be continent and chaste is not in me***

Please provide quote in context. Sounds like a bladder problem.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

There are no facts here. If these alleged relics were real they would be sitting in Rome today.

Do you think Maria Monk was a great author too? Hey, I heard a Pentecostal say the nuns used to wear big robes to hide all their pregnancies, then they killed the babies and hid the bodies in the basement. Why don't you spread that rumor around today?

Sure some Popes had illegitimate kids. They were condemned. Sure Mahony is a heretic. He is condemned. The problem with Luther is that he was a heretic who denied the words of Christ and preached a false gospel. He was condemned by the Church but embraced by Protestants. Why do you think a man who says the things I've quoted is qualified to lead a Christian revolution?

I hear much about the errors of Catholicism but I've yet to hear the truth of Protestantism. The biggest claim to fame seems to be that you're not Catholics. Neither are Mormons (of whom you have more in common than you want to admit).

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Very funny. Nice try at diversion. It didn't work.

[drstevej]

***Sure Mahony is a heretic. He is condemned. ***

Excuse me, I thought he was still an Archbishop in your church. Heretics can be archbishops?

***I hear much about the errors of Catholicism but I've yet to hear the truth of Protestantism.***

Either too much ear wax or spiritual blindness.

***If these alleged relics were real they would be sitting in Rome today.***

Who said they were real, not me. I said they were presented as such by your church. Indulgences were offered for venerating them.

Are all real relics in Rome today? I didn't think so.

***Why do you think a man who says the things I've quoted is qualified to lead a Christian revolution? ***

Still waiting for context. Luther was hardly the sole leaders. In fact your Erasmus publication of the Greek New Testament was a tremendous help.

Look up Julius Exclusus by Erasmus. Hear his concern about abuses at the era of Luther.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Heretics can be Popes.

As to your next further insult, I'll take that as no response to my point.

I've already questioned the veracity of this list and told you why.

If you want to play 'context' with Luther's obvious statements, you've lost. The man believed in bigamy. Accept it.

[drstevej]

***If you want to play 'context' with Luther's obvious statements, you've lost. The man believed in bigamy. Accept it.***

Wake up. I already acknowledge he counseled for bigamy. It's the claim hr was unfaithful to Katie I ask you to document. You pull a half dozen words outr of context and charge a person with adultery. What's zup wit dat?

***Heretics can be Popes.***

You ain't seen nothing yet...

- Pope Piel I