Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[scripter]

It seems that you forgot to demonstrate that the church was insufficient before you discuss restoration...oh, and document the claims, such as manuscript evidence for BOM.

Not just the BOM, but the Bible as well. What grieves my spirit in regards to Mormonism is documented at the end of my freeper profile:

This link is a prime example of why Christians have so many issues with Mormonism (LDS). The text of the link follows:
To: Grig

And the LDS position is that prior to the time that those manuscripts were made, that the content was altered (mostly though deletions), sometimes to force it conform to the acceptable views of the time, sometimes human error, perhaps even sometimes due to malice against God. Because of what was lost, a prophet was needed to restore it.

Not even Metzger can perform textual criticism on something like that! There's little I can say if someone wants to believe biblical text was deleted but has no physical evidence to support that it existed in the first place.

36 posted on 02/27/2003 10:25 AM PST by scripter

Some of my best freeper friends are Mormons but I just can't agree with their theology and their reasons behind the need for restoration.

[abu afak]

"What does abu afak mean" you ask?

(I was just explaining this 'Arab' handle in another string yesterday.. But I'm always glad to Tell people:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=abu+afak

[snerkel]

Noachide relates to the seven laws of Noah.

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Noah

[abu afak]

Me? bad decisions?
Definitely, Yes.
Tons.. though non 'major'////
Or should I say7 nothing illegal or physically hurtful.

Maybe there was a 5th Gospel that could have helped, but as it stands now ..

[Alouette]

My cousin Mary is one. She was raised a very very ultra reform Jew. Yes, Mary is her real name.

[Alouette]

the mormons were permitted by the Israeli government to desecrate a Jewish holy site in Jerusalem by building one of their institutions on it?

Last time I looked, there was a mosque on the Temple Mount. When did the Mormons get around to building a temple there?

[luvtheconstitution]

You didn't read very carefully. The change in skin color that was a curse on a group of people in the Book of Mormon was a reference to the Indians, not negroes.

[Gamecock]

***have you ever heard a group of Mormons belittle any other religion***

Does John D. Lee count?

[restornu]

have you ever heard a group of Mormons belittle any other religion

Does John D. Lee count?

Lee was spooked and over reacted he thought it was the missouri extermination mobocrats!

He was hung for his deed!

[Gamecock]

So spooked he killed them after they surrendered? That's pretty scared.

[restornu]

So spooked he killed them after they surrendered? That's pretty scared.

When you make statements like that you should also include your source!

[CARepubGal]

I could have sworn John Lee was Shot (that blood atonement thing again).

[Elsie]

So....

It started real early: is THAT what you are saying?

[Elsie]

 

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

The Seven Laws of Noah

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

 

Genesis 9

 

 1.  Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
 2.  The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
 3.  Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
 4.  "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
 5.  And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
 6.  "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
 7.  As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." 

---

 

Inferred indeed!

1) to establish courts of justice;

2) not to commit blasphemy;

3) not to commit idolatry;

4) not to commit incest and adultery;

5) not to commit bloodshed;

6) not to commit robbery; and

7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal.

---

 8.  Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him:
 9.  "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you
 10.  and with every living creature that was with you--the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you--every living creature on earth.
 11.  I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."
 12.  And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come:
 13.  I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.
 14.  Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds,
 15.  I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.
 16.  Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
 17.  So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."

 

 18.  The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)
 19.  These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
 20.  Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded  to plant a vineyard.
 21.  When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
 22.  Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside.
 23.  But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
 24.  When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him,
 25.  he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."
 26.  He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
 27.  May God extend the territory of Japheth ; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his  slave."
 28.  After the flood Noah lived 350 years.
 29.  Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died.

---

---

 

I can see that having only 7 to follow would be a lot easier than 10 613, especially since the TEMPLE is gone, making it impossible to do the sacrifices needed, but it still must be hard, trying to DO the right thing so one will be admitted to Heaven.

 

So it appears that JESUS is anthama to Jews........

For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

Ouch! Between a ROCK and a hard place! Either to continue to try and follow these laws or totally place your trust in what the followers of Jesus claim HE has done.

 

Tough choice!  I can see how one would REALLY want to be sure that they've made the right one.

 

 

[Elsie]

 

He was hung for his deed!

529 posted on 12/22/2003 11:47:53 PM CST by restornu .

.

.

When you make statements like that you should also include your source!

531 posted on 12/23/2003 12:11:35 AM CST by restornu

 

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To: Gamecock

I could have sworn John Lee was Shot (that blood atonement thing again).

532 posted on 12/23/2003 12:18:10 AM CST by CARepubGal (I do not sell my tokens for money)

 

Darn good idea!

[Elsie]

Either to continue to try and follow these laws or totally place your trust in what the followers of Jesus claim HE has done.

 

No wonder, when Paul says these things...

Hebrews 7:18-19
 18.  The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
 19.  (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

 

Hebrews 8:6-13
 6.  But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
 7.  For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
 8.  But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
 9.  It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them,  declares the Lord.
 10.  This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
 11.  No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
 12.  For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
 13.  By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

....some folks get unglued, for he has just struck down all their reasonings of religion.

[Elsie]

Maybe there was a 5th Gospel that could have helped, but as it stands now ..

Dang!

How many witnesses do we need?

[Elsie]

Both groups are my groups.

Then why do you frequent FR?

---

You can cash in those chips and get TWICE the 'victim' status from the Liberals..

You could be a POSTER BOY!!

---

(Probably not... I feel you are not a feminist or 'gay')

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

;^)

 

I'm jus' teasin'...................

[Zionist Conspirator]

Last time I looked, there was a mosque on the Temple Mount. When did the Mormons get around to building a temple there?

It's not on Har HaBayit. It's either on Har HaTzofim or Har HaZeitim (I think). At any rate, it should not have been built.

[Gamecock]

Disclaimer: This post was made at the request of restornu. Mormon bashing is frowned upon on this site and I am posting this at the specific request of restornu, and it is intended for information purposes only.

When you make statements like that you should also include your source!

Well, OK, but only because you asked. I don't want to be accused of bashing our mormon friends!

A Utah Massacre and Mormon Memory
New York Times/May 24, 2003
By Sally Denton

Santa Fe, N.M. -- As families tramp all over the country this summer, visiting historic sites, there's one spot - Mountain Meadows in southwestern Utah - that won't be on many itineraries.

Mountain Meadows, a two-hour drive from one of the state's popular tourist destinations, Zion National Park, is the site of what the historian Geoffrey Ward has called "the most hideous example of the human cost exacted by religious fanaticism in American history until 9/11." And while it might not be a major tourist destination, for a century and a half the massacre at Mountain Meadows has been the focus of passionate debate among Mormons and the people of Utah. It is a debate that cuts to the core of the basic tenets of Mormonism. This, the darkest stain on the history of the religion, is a bitter reality and challenging predicament for a modern Mormon Church struggling to shed its extremist history.

On Sept. 11, 1857, in a meadow in southwestern Utah, a militia of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, attacked a wagon train of Arkansas families bound for California. After a five-day siege, the militia persuaded the families to surrender under a flag of truce and a pledge of safe passage. Then, in the worst butchery of white pioneers by other white pioneers in the entire colonization of America, approximately 140 men, women and children were slaughtered. Only 17 children under the age of 8 - the age of innocence in the Mormon faith - were spared.

After the massacre, the church first claimed that local Paiute Indians were responsible, but as evidence of Mormon involvement mounted, it placed the sole blame for the killings on John D. Lee, a militia member and a Mormon zealot who was also the adopted son of the prophet Brigham Young. After nearly two decades, as part of a deal for statehood, Lee was executed by a firing squad in 1877. The church has been reluctant to assume responsibility - labeling Lee a renegade - but several historians, including some who are Mormon, believe that church leaders, though never prosecuted, ordered the massacre.