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Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms
NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.


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To: restornu
I've seen some what you've posted on FAIR. You can keep your reality. I prefer mine sane.
501 posted on 12/22/2003 6:07:16 PM PST by Wrigley (No quarter to the false teachings of Joe Smith.)
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To: Wrigley; TontoKowalski
Thanks for the plug!

FAIR
http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?act=idx
502 posted on 12/22/2003 6:20:26 PM PST by restornu ( "Faith...is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes refuse to see."J.R.R. Tolkien)
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To: restornu
Yeah, I'm sure you want more people to see the nonsense that's posted over there.
503 posted on 12/22/2003 6:21:50 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Elsie
More translation stuff.........

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=87&st=0&#entry1956
504 posted on 12/22/2003 6:40:06 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Elsie
Does this whole string mean I have to leave a 'living will' that I don't want to be Baptized after I die?

and also have that as a footnote/fine print on my Tombstone.

Or will they 'Save me' anyway ;^)
505 posted on 12/22/2003 6:43:20 PM PST by abu afak (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001809724_pope07.html)
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To: Spiff
Be they my or their ancestors (I can tell you my Grandfather had no Morman Children or Grand Children) They have no place in this action, hijacking the legacy of a person is disrespectful. I know that I have ancestors who went to hell its not my place to put them into limbo -or hell -or heaven its Gods.

If these are people who dies in WWII they have two or at most three generations its very possible that they have no morman decendants..

506 posted on 12/22/2003 6:43:47 PM PST by N3WBI3
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To: Wrigley

Watch out!

Don't ruffle her feathers........


Re: Book of Mormon Counted Among 20 Most Influential Books in America
From restornu | 07/30/2003 8:23:38 AM CDT read

If you con't to spam me I will report you for harassment!


507 posted on 12/22/2003 6:47:35 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: N3WBI3
Haven't you figured it out yet? They just say that baptism of the dead is for ancestors only. The truth is something else entirely. They'll baptise whoever they want to.
508 posted on 12/22/2003 6:48:59 PM PST by TontoKowalski
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To: abu afak
Now now..........

They just want to help.

Just in case you have made some bad decisions in this life.
509 posted on 12/22/2003 6:49:33 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Elsie
“Well.... that's a good beginning, but continue and ALSO read the Doctrines and Covenents, Pearl of Great Price, The Joseph Smith Translation (of the bible) as well as other historical documents the LDS organization say are scripture: then you'll have a better appreciation of what they believe.”

“Then, if you decide to join them, you may be introduced to the Temple ceremonies: things so holy that if the descrioptions of them are published on FreeRepublic, they WILL be yanked -- either by themselves or the whole thread to wghich they are posted.”

Way too late to take your advice because I read them all many years ago. My family has been traced back to the very beginnings of the church in NY. In fact, a direct ancestor of mine was one of the three witnesses (Martin Harris; see Book of Mormon). My original family were beat up in nearly every state between NY and UT. Never again! My great-great grandfather had two wives and 13 children, who in turn they each produced about the same.

There is nothing you can teach me about the Mormon Church. I swore that I wouldn’t return to this thread, but upon checking before turning in for the night I saw your posting and just had to respond.

Merry Christmas to you and your family
510 posted on 12/22/2003 6:52:54 PM PST by panaxanax
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To: TontoKowalski
HMmmm...

Why do some folks get upset?


Do they consider it as 'taking their name in vain'?
511 posted on 12/22/2003 6:53:06 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Elsie
I am of American Indian extraction.

My statement stands.

Obviously, you've not had contact with what happened to the early members of the LDS Church.

512 posted on 12/22/2003 6:55:08 PM PST by mrobison (We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams.)
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To: panaxanax
Merry Christmas to you and your family

Thank you! We CAN agree on this!


I really don't know WHERE my ancestors came from other that back to my grandparents, basicly Scot and German stock.

Myself, I've also had two wives, but only one child. She has blessed me with a believing husband and two grandsons.

After being unmarried for about 20 years now, I've found a lovely lady who says she'll put up with my crotchetiness, and we are to be married in January.

513 posted on 12/22/2003 6:58:49 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: mrobison
It's the "more than" to which I take exception.

Your group has had nothing to compare to the trail of tears, Kit Carson's rape of the land, or forceable relocation of the Seminoles.
514 posted on 12/22/2003 7:02:14 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Elsie
Both groups are my groups.
515 posted on 12/22/2003 7:09:08 PM PST by mrobison (We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams.)
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To: abu afak
Who do you thinks save you?
516 posted on 12/22/2003 7:13:23 PM PST by restornu ( "Faith...is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes refuse to see."J.R.R. Tolkien)
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To: abu afak
What does abu afak mean?
517 posted on 12/22/2003 7:17:11 PM PST by restornu ( "Faith...is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes refuse to see."J.R.R. Tolkien)
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To: Spiff; CARepubGal; CCWoody; Wrigley; Alex Murphy; drstevej
Not boastful. Just true. The Church organized by Jesus Christ had to be restored. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church. Until the Gospel was restored to Joseph Smith, nothing the existing church(es) did was "sufficient". If it was sufficient then there would have been no necessity to have the Church restored.

Stupid Tautology:

You're begging the question. It seems that you forgot to demonstrate that the church was insufficient before you discuss restoration...oh, and document the claims, such as manuscript evidence for BOM.

518 posted on 12/22/2003 7:28:53 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Elsie
Sorry to hear you walked away from God - I've done that myself.

Instead of wasting your time with me, I suggest you combat the chr*stians on this site who endorse evolution, the documentary hypothesis, "Genesis is a myth," etc. Unfortunately, most of the chr*stians of the world believe these blasphemous things (not every chr*stian is a Fundamentalist Protestant, unfortunately).

I vehemently disagree with you that most Christians believe the above. That I am aware, very few Christians endorse evolution (as generally defined), and a small fraction even know what the documentary hypothesis is let alone endorse it. The same goes for the Genesis is a myth crowd.

I've taught the Bible for years in various churches and the topics included creation/evolution, the documentary hypothesis, surveys of Bible books including Genesis and have found those you define as most are a small group, definitely not most. So if you're referring to protestant churches then I definitely disagree.

519 posted on 12/22/2003 7:30:06 PM PST by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Whoops. That should say: Sorry to hear you walked away from [Christianity].
520 posted on 12/22/2003 7:36:40 PM PST by scripter (Thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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