Posted on 12/21/2003 4:41:40 AM PST by Pharmboy
Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.
Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.
But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.
"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."
Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.
But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.
"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.
But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."
"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.
Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."
But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.
"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.
With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.
According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.
Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.
Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.
The question was "do you believe that someone can be posthumously converted?"
My local rabbi taught me no. If you have learned otherwise I would be happy to listen and learn.
You can duck someone under water all day, you can call him by my grampa's name until your face turns blue. It will not make him a Mormon.
It will not affect his widow, children, grandchildren or his memory. He was what he was.
Which is my point. Unless you believe the ritual is meaningless.
Here are you exact words: Once you are dead you are dead.
Since we believe in illui nishamos that is not true. So "once you are dead you are dead" was a poor choice of words.
But acceptance another religion can only be made while one is alive and conscious.
If any thing, Christians should object to be called Gentiles by the Jews! The word Gentile means Godless! That should be taken as an insult. Like all groups that force the rest of us to call them a politically correct name, let us demand not to be ever called Gentile!
The difference is, you believe that you have to have Jesus on your lips. We believe we have to have His commandments written in our hearts and to be truly converted from the inside out. To us, one's words mean little unless they are backed up by action. We believe Jesus wants action not just small talk.
None the less, believe as you may about what gets one favor with Jesus.
There is only ONE Heavely Father, who is God, aka, the TRUE guy in charge. That always has been doctrine in Mormonism.
Again, as has been stated previously, we don't claim the names of the baptised dead as members. We don't know their status - whether they accepted or rejected the ordinance. We only did the work for them to give them the opportunity to accept or reject.
You're right. We're "going after" all of our ancestors.
Then you quote the article: Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies. Using this quote as a source, you now claim it is Mormons who are being baptized and not Jews. Please. Get a dictionary and look up what "proxy" means.
Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself? I am beginning to pity you...again, I hope you're young so there is a chance of improving your mind.
YOU previously on same thread: The problem is that by their own rules a Orthodox Jew would not believe this and neither would a Methodist. Both are of the faith belief that once you are dead you are dead. So your example was slightly off base.
Therefore, you are not only ignorant but a liar. I am beginning to believe you are merely a troll because of your constant lies and idiocy. This will be my last response to you. Buh-bye.
One can read this verse; or 10 verses ahead or behind it; or the entire epistle or the whole Bible and you STILL will have no more info than you've got now. ONLY in JS writings does any 'explanation' appear.
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