Posted on 08/27/2003 2:00:45 PM PDT by yonif
B'nai Brith Canada today announced the launch of a campaign to inform members of Toronto's Jewish community about the activities of "Jews for Jesus."
Calling it the "Proud to be Jewish" Campaign," B'nai Brith's goal is to warn members of the Toronto Jewish community about the presence and methods of the missionary group and to advise them of their rights.
"This isn't about free speech," said Rochelle Wilner, president of B'nai Brith Canada. "Targeted missionizing, especially when done in a manner calculated to deceive the unsuspecting, is offensive to our community. Christianity is not a branch of Judaism it's a different religion altogether, and any attempt to portray it as anything but a different religion is subterfuge. "The term 'Jews for Jesus' makes about as much sense as 'Baptists for Buddha' or 'Catholics for Krishna,'" she said.
"We didn't want this to be just another lesson in how to answer," said Frank Dimant, executive vice president.
"Some in our community are simply not capable of countering missionaries because they have received little formal Jewish education.
"We want members of our community to know that they don't have to defend Judaism to Christian missionaries they have an absolute right to not be subjected to these ministrations in the first place."
Dr. Charles McVety, president of Canada Christian College and a leader in Canada's evangelical Christian community, spoke as well. "As a committed Christian I support the idea of preaching Christianity, but preaching Christianity under the guise of Judaism to those who are in fact seeking Judaism, is plainly wrong," said McVety.
"We unequivocally denounce any and all deceptive tactics."
The most essential of prayers, the Shma...in English for you non-Hebrew literate types...goes:
Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is one Lord.
...as in not three. Trust me it is a difficult concept to convey to someone that has been taught all their life that such an idea is heretical.
And isn't it interesting that in this single clear verse, Deuteronomy 6:4:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
We have Yahweh (Jehovah/LORD) used twice, and the plural for God (Elohiym) used once. Three successive declarations of God - followed by the statement of "one". Three in (is) One.
If you're unable to accept the fact that "right for you but not for me" is as illogical in matters of faith as it is in determining whether one should drink strychnine or Tylenol--then yes, I agree that further dialogue is probably pointless. I use the same logic in my theological beliefs as I do in every other aspect of my life; I'm sorry if that offends you beyond the bounds of "agree to disagree."
You are free to believe what you wish, and I am free to believe what I wish. God gave us this power, and no man may take it away.
WHAT IN THE SAM HILL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Where in the world did you get the idea that I was trying to take away your right to choose? How does pointing out that ideas--including ideas about God's identity, nature, and relationship to Man--have consequences and not all ideas are equally valid equate to the online equivallent of "convert or die"? I think you may be just a weeee bit too touchy on this subject.
It's interesting that you should take that tone on this particular thread, which was originally about the right of Jews to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel and to share those beliefs with other Jews. Do not they have the right to believe as they wish and voice those views, as you demand for yourself?
What troubles me is not your right to believe as you will and act on those beliefs within the bounds of civilized society, but your hypocracy in refusing that right of respect to the Christians on this forum, Jew or Gentile. Sloppy thinking--black is white, war is peace, slavery is freedom if you just want it to be--also troubles me, and that is all I meant to voice.
As a famous man once wisely observed, "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:3)
Having been a one-time follower of said famous man, you should use His words with more care and in context. The mote and the beam in this proverb both represent sin, not differing viewpoints. If I tell you not to watch a rated-R movie while looking at porn, then I have a beam in my eye. If, on the other hand, I simply point out the irrefutable fact that two worldviews with mutually exclusive claims cannot both be correct, then this has nothing to do with the proverb in question.
I also hope you will understand why I refuse to accept the strawmen you are offering me.
What strawmen? Either Jesus Christ is the Son of God and deserves to be worshipped as such, or He isn’t and serves only as an idol in place of God. Both viewpoints cannot be correct at the same time.
If you accept the notion that talking to God is sloppy thinking, then most certainly I am guilty of it.
If you accept the notion that a man can look at a red light and choose to believe that it is green, and that will make it okay to run on through the intersection (never mind the mac truck coming from the other direction), then you are guilty of sloppy thinking. If you agree that green is green and red is red regardless of what we want to believe of it, but simply disagree about which is which, then you’re not, and we simply have a disagreement on that subject. I am capable of disagreeing with someone without viewing their certainty that their position is right without taking it as a personal attack of my human right to believe as I choose. From your post, you apparently have trouble with this.
In fact, your entire post is an exercise in self-contradiction, and I say that without meaning any vindictiveness at all. On the one hand, you call my simple statement that both of our viewpoints, being mutually exclusive as to the position of Jesus Christ in God’s order, cannot be correct at the same time as a personal attack on your freedom of religion—never mind that there is absolutely nothing at all in my post that could reasonably be construed as such. On the other, you presume that your viewpoint that “that which leads you to God is right for you,” no matter what your belief or path may be is absolutely correct, and try to lecture me from that vantage point. You even presume to call it “the truth” that “God is everywhere” while decrying my attempt to state nothing more than that there is indeed absolute truth, even (especially) in religious matters. Okay, so if someone disagrees with you and believes that God is really in a specific statue somewhere, would you say that they are on the right path to finding God? Make up your mind and stop looking for traps, accusations, and attacks that aren’t there.
Any system of belief which opposes direct communication between you and God is false, hurtful and to be avoided at all costs.
I agree. I part company with Roman Catholicism with its hierarchy of church, saints, and Mary because of that—for that matter, I part with many Protestant denominations for similar reasons. “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (who also happens to be God, 1 Tim. 2:5). While I believe in learning from others, I also believe in ultimately testing everything by God’s Word, guided by the Holy Spirit.
I too have spoken with God, and He has told me, in words, in inclinations of my heart during prayer, and by confirmation in history that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah, who died for my sins. If the voice that speaks to you is not doing the same, then either God is confused, incapable of communicating His truths clearly, lying, or else we are simply not speaking to the same Person. That’s not a condemnation, just another observation that we cannot both be correct.
Rather I sense judgment and a need to establish who between us is right or wrong on a topic where such a concept is relevant only between each of us and God.
First of all, to turn this around for a moment, I sense in you a need for judgment as well—indeed, your post is nothing more than a long, harsh judgment of my character and motivations based on too little information. Perhaps you would be better served to take my words at face value rather than to try to psychoanalyze me on the basis of a few paragraphs, a feat that no true psychologist would attempt—which means that you as a layman shouldn’t either.
Secondly, the purpose of my post was not to establish in a few paragraphs which one of us is right and which is wrong—obviously, we are both convinced that we are right, or we would hold different positions that we found more compelling—but rather simply to establish that there is such a thing as right and wrong when it comes to the understanding of God and the proper way to approach him, which your original post that I was responding to denied.
Let me repeat that: You have attacked me for the grievous sin of saying that there is indeed such a thing as sin, such a thing as a wrong way to approach God.
Now, it is possible that God gives leeway in an honest person who tries to worship Him in the wrong way. But even if so, if we are truly honest people who seek to elevate God above ourselves, who seek His will above our own, who want to be in a right relationship with Him, then we should never be afraid to constantly reexamine our walk, to see if it truly honors God as He would be honored. Yes, to do so is often uncomfortable for both sides, but if we avoid it for that reason, are we not elevating our own comfort above the will of God?
I was raised a Christian, but I went through my own apostate phase. While I never formally repudiated my faith, I did not live in accordance with it; i.e. I was a hypocrite in the classical sense of the word. During that phase, I too tried to relax and be comfortable with the notion that all roads led to God one way or the other. When I truly wanted to know God’s will, I sought it out. I purposely sought out dialogues and even debates with those of other faiths. I wanted them to take their best shot at converting me, at disproving the ample evidences that I found available that Jesus of Nazareth really had been executed, but that He rose from the dead. And I prayed nightly that God would give me wisdom and lead me closer to Him. I did this because I wanted to make sure that no part of my being, body, spirit, or mind was held back from Him. In the process, I found my faith and my walk with God solidifying, not crumbling.
I firmly believe that when we take a double-minded “my way works for me, but not for you” approach, that we dishonor God by treating Him as less real than our human relations. I furthermore believe that in so doing, we lose so much out of our relationship with our Lord that we would weep if we knew it. I believe that an open and honest dialogue, one in which we each acknowledge that both sides cannot be right, but choose to love each other and discuss the issues openly and without rancor, can only be of benefit to all involved.
But those who dismiss the concept of Jews believing in the Messiah out of hand don’t want that open dialogue. In fact, they want the government to shut the JfJs down, to make it illegal for a man to walk up to another and say, “Hey, I’d like to tell you about something that changed my life,” on the basis of a stupid semantic trick. But until the Jewish community formally disavows ties with the many atheist and agnostic Jews of the world, until Israel turns them all out, the Jewish community has no right to say only to the Messianic Jews, “No, we’re a religion, not a culture, and you can’t stay.” That’s hypocrisy of the basest sort.
The notion that God is nothing but wrath and anger is not borne out by the Torah. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions, that's just the way things are. The real God is extremely forgiving. The fact Jews exist at all is proof enough of that.
Jews have never needed to sacrifice human beings or worship men to gain God's forgiveness, and neither has anyone else.
I accepted and practiced Christianity for 25 years, but ultimately rejected it. For that Christians say I will go to hell. I say such obsession with darkness is hell itself, and experience bears this out. Once I discarded Christianity and chose to speak to God directly, I stopped living in fear and doubt. As Paul might put it, it was as if the scales had fallen from my eyes.
Again, hear me when I tell you that if your belief in Jesus truly leads you to God, then it is good. In my case it did not, but led to decades of confusion, anguish and feelings of guilt. That is not salvation, and the notion that perhaps I "didn't try hard enough" or "truly believe" is nothing more than fiction and a cheap attempt at cult intimidation. You have no idea what I have been through, nor where I have been.
One reason, but certainly not the only reason, I was unable to continue to practice Christianity is its endless fixation with sin, guilt, death, hell, demons and evil. These things do exist, but it is spiritual suicide to ruminate on them. In 25 years and dozens of congregations, the same problems kept surfacing again and again. For me, it was not a path to happiness, salvation or God.
I know a pattern when I see one, even when I try to force myself not to see it. The threats of eternal damnation, the lake of fire and other such things are products of Christian dogma, not the Torah. Can you reread your post objectively and honestly, and tell me with a straight face that it is not rife with threats and darkness?
Darkness, anger, hatred and torment are not the calling cards of God, but of one of his angels who seeks to be like God. Talk to God, and not a surrogate, and ask Him for yourself. Certainly a Christian should not deny the power and importance of prayer!
The Truth is immutable and needs no defense, it needs no dressing or adornment, and is best when it is plain. It is there for anyone who is willing to see it.
God does not hide, does not deceive, and He does not lie.
That is something the fire and brimstone Christians will never understand.
There is no way you will accept anything that I have to say on the topic as perhaps actually being true, as your posts make clear. That is not an attack on you, but a candid observation from my end of the discussion. Been here and done this a thousand times, believe me.
I posted originally to point out why I think what Jews for Jesus does is wrong. The responses are extremely revealing for those willing to read them honestly. The Righteous Indignation Meter reads high for those who take offense to Jews defending themselves from spiritual imperialism and not opening their hearts to the joy and love of everlasting salvation through Christ Jesus. They make B'nai Brith's case more eloquently than I ever could.
Instead of understanding or even acknowledgement that just maybe Jews may have a right to take offense to aggressive evangelism that amounts to no less than an attack on our religion by people who have the nerve to say the covenant between God and the people of Israel is superseded by Christianity, I am, for the most part, bombarded with more of the same nonsense (with some brilliant exceptions, and thank you so much for those!).
What am I to say to people who take mortal umbrage at Muslims trying to get them to demote Jesus to a "prophet second to Mohammed", and yet cannot understand why Jews will not promote Jesus to the status of God? This is made all the more frustrating by the fact the we can't promote Jesus to godhood, because we have never been given that authority.
There is one God, and one God only. This is the foundation of Judaism, without which it has no meaning at all. The one thing we Jews do more than any other is proclaim the truth that God is one. Millions of Jews have died throughout the centuries rather than renounce the true God of Israel. Does this mean nothing to you?
Can you consider the possibility that just maybe we might be right not to do so? Or will you instead insist on continuing the spirited attacks on the very essence of who we are that have been waged unceasingly upon us for centuries?
It is hypocrisy embodied, and it is a defining characteristic of Christianity and its mission of spiritual domination over the hearts, minds and souls of mankind. That this also describes the goal of Islam is telling. For when Muslims seek to force conversion to Islam, it is "evil", but when Christians seek to do the exact same thing, it is "good". There can be no truth in such thinking. The fact is that they are both evil.
The first two commandments and the tales told in the Torah and the scrolls spell it out plainly enough. After suffering so much for idolatry and the worship of false gods so many times in the past, are we to break these commandments again? We finally got it right, please don't try to take that away from us.
It is also true that most (but thankfully not all) Christians are some of the most difficult of all people to try to reason with, because there can only be one way for them: their way. To not agree on all points is "sin" and a one-way ticket to Hell. It would be comical if it were not so tragic, and had it not caused so much sadness and grief in the world, whitewashed into the "good news" and "everlasting life" for the victims of this spiritual thuggery.
For posting these things, I am sure I will be banished to Hell by the Christians who choose to usurp God's throne, sitting in judgment of others, instead of bowing to Him and His infinite wisdom. Perhaps I will even banished from the Free Republic, although I have not known Jim Robinson to ban people for speaking candidly and forthrightly about what they believe (unless it is virulently anti-conservative, but I am a Conservative Jew, so we'll see where that goes).
Rather, I am sure I will have the hell fire of Christian wrath called down upon me, and indeed am wrapping my computer with virtual asbestos tape as I write this. The fact that I even feel the need to do so should mean something to those who inspire such reticence to express my views. Can there truly be any advantage to convincing people they are better off not telling you what they actually think?
I know better than to speak candidly where Christianity is concerned, but have foolishly thrown caution to the winds anyway (I'm only human). The results of my indiscretion were mostly predictable, but some responses were surprising and refreshing.
The ever-expanding and ultimately tedious posts of point/counterpoint are an inevitable result of posting any belief contrary to the prevailing ones here, as anywhere, but they grow particularly well in the soil of religious and spiritual conviction. Whether or not I will choose to speak so candidly about Judaism and Christianity again in another thread, I don't know, but this has been a more educational experience than I had expected. Who knows, perhaps I may not be cowed into silence after all. Time will tell.
It is especially ironic to see posts from some of you "Christian debaters" out there, making the legal and logical case for Jesus, because I used to be one myself in high school in Utah, driven as a Baptist to convince my Mormon friends of the falsehoods and spiritual perils of Mormonism. God is nothing if not just, and has a truly divine sense of humor, so I guess it's payback time for me in that regard.
Seeing it from the other side is enlightening, that's for sure. As you dissect and analyze my words, seeking cracks and flaws into which the lever of the gospel might be inserted, bear in mind, I have done the same thing many times myself with the words of others, with the same noble goal of "saving" their immortal souls fixed squarely in my mind and with songs of praise in my heart.
To those of you willing and able to discuss topics like this intelligently and thoughtfully, I give my gratitude. Your insights are refreshing and speak of the goodness in your hearts.
To those who are blinded with rage by my heretical words and feel compelled to "testify", "take a stand for what's right", "make me see the truth of Jesus' salvation" or just plain try to shout me down, I say flame away, because you will anyway, giving me the metaphysical lash in manners both overt and subtle, as you so love to do.
Just remember though, you cannot give me hell unless it is yours to give. Consider that carefully, and go with God.
Actually, I think I already understand your silence quite well, if you know what I mean. I am a rather charred moth myself.
But in the chaotic and tumultuous wasteland that threads such as these inevitably become, your words are as clear and refreshing as cool spring water. Even in the driest desert, there can be an oasis.
And perhaps that's why, after so many nights of circling too close to the flame, when darkness falls again, we dust the soot off our wings, gather our strength and take flight toward the candle yet again.
Because in doing so, we draw closer to that which we seek: the light of truth.
We all die far too quickly as it is, never to revisit this tiny little piece of eternity.
The gift of life, of existence, is the greatest of all God's gifts to us, without which none of the others would be possible.
Why not enjoy it for the miracle and blessing that it is, instead of playing bargaining games for a better spot in heaven, and fearing eternally treading water in a lake of fire?
There is nothing wrong with enjoying life, no matter what some people might say. God's gifts are meant to be appreciated, not discarded.
Where do I go to get arrested?
They certainly are.
About 10 years ago, I was in Israel visiting relatives, and walked down to the bookstore to get a Jerusalem Post. Two tables completely blocked the sidewalk, the only option being to walk into the street and get smashed by a bus.
A six-four 270 pound jewish linebacker with flying tallit blocked my path and demanded that I lay tefillin with him. I politely declined, and he persisted, physically preventing me from walking on. Perhaps noting my pale, Finnish, utterly non-jewish appearance, he asked "are you jewish?"
"No," I said.
Mr. Burly-Bucher immediately broke eye contact and without saying a word, he moved the table to let me pass and eyed the next pedestrian with singular anticipation.
maybe we're sick!
Listen, I was wondering if I could get a comment from the Jewish side here about the Trinity deal and the schm'a.
I don't see "The LORD your God is One" as excluding concept of the trinity, because I (and others) don't see the Trinity as 3 Gods (which I see as putting words in my mouth), so if you could comment on 2 things:
The concept of 3 Persons (or "persons" if you prefer) in one indivisible essence.
Could you explain how you make the distinction between "Echad" and Yachid?" I see the arguments for "echad" being pointing toward, or at least allowing for "echad" as a collective unity. Obviously, the rabbis don't find these particularly compelling, and are quite absolute in rejecting them. Is there something I'm missing?
You’ve given me no reason to, to be blunt. Your previous post was an attempt to mischaracterize me, even to the point of accusing me of trying to take away your right to believe as you will. You did not defend the premise that one could reach God multiple ways; in fact, as I pointed out, you took several hard-nosed stances regarding what honors God and what He is like, such as your statement that God is everywhere. You can’t have it both ways.
“Spiritual imperialism?” It’s now “imperialism” to debate ideas in a public arena? To share your beliefs with others? If so, you yourself are guilty of it, given that you have shared your beliefs in detail on this forum.
Instead of understanding or even acknowledgement that just maybe Jews may have a right to take offense to aggressive evangelism that amounts to no less than an attack on our religion by people who have the nerve to say the covenant between God and the people of Israel is superseded by Christianity, I am, for the most part, bombarded with more of the same nonsense (with some brilliant exceptions, and thank you so much for those!).
If you’re referring to me “bombarding” you, you obviously haven’t read my post. I made one post to another Freeper explaining why Jesus did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies in one coming, but that wasn’t even addressed to you. The only point I have pressed to you is the plain and simple fact that both sides cannot be right, and since both sides cannot be right, we owe it to God to have open dialogue rather than vindictive attempts to use the government to silence discussion.
No one has a right not to be evangelized, beyond the right to say “no thank you” when someone starts a discussion. Obviously, the Jews for Jesus are seeing success if it’s come down to asking Big Brother to stop them—perhaps you should simply compete in the arena of ideas instead of trying to stack the deck with the government and violate the JfJ’s basic constitutional rights to speak their beliefs.
Frankly, most of your arguments against me have nothing to do with my original post or my follow-up post. You appear to be having a knee-jerk reaction, anticipating all sorts of horrid boogymen out to convert you rather than simply responding to the exact words that I have written to you. Perhaps, as I suggested in my last post, you should stop trying to psychoanalyze me, and simply respond to my original stance and the supporting arguments I have made since then.
Let me repeat, since you seem to keep missing the mark: I have not yet (and I really never intended to, unless you were interested in an off-forum discussion) built my case for why I believe Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel and the world. All I have done is pointed out that the “all roads lead to God; do whatever is right for you” approach is sloppy thinking, and expressed my belief that sloppy thinking and a hazy logic for the sake of feeling comfortable dishonors God, putting our own comfort above Him.
You still have not responded to that. Instead, you have gone on an oversensitive rampage, throwing out arguments on everything except what I actually wrote. Frankly, given the evidence of hypersensitivity, exaggeration, and false accusation displayed here, I have to wonder if you might be exaggerating about just how the JfJs came to your synagogue.
Just for the sake of completeness, let’s hit your other points: I don’t get morally offended at the Muslim who doesn’t agree that Isa is the Son of God; I simply disagree with them. However, I do have a couple of Muslim friends who come from a liberal sect who, like you, like to say that it doesn’t matter, and I’ve taken issue with their logic as well.
We agree that there is one God. What we disagree on is whether He can have more than one aspect. I believe in a God who is complicated enough to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all at once. Many Jewish rabbis have agreed that God is complex in His essence, like those of a kabalistic persuasion who have drawn up the Sephiroth. I further believe that if you believe the prophets of the tanakh, that the Messiah would have to be God to fulfill all of their expectations. I’m not going to go into a verse-by-verse expose now, because that has never been my point to you. If you wish to continue this discussion in that area, please contact me by email or Freepmail.
I have indeed considered the possibility that the Jews might be right. I have studied the subject in great detail, including what I have been able to find of your own rabbis expectations (before the advent of Christianity) of what the Messiah would be like. I have sought out and spoken to Jews who knew their faith to get them to challenge me. And I have become even more convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah in the process, not less.
But that’s not the point I made that sent you on this emotional tirade (and make no mistake, your arguments have been entirely emotional up to this point). The point is that we cannot both be correct and both be honoring God as He should be honored. If I’m wrong, then I’m guilty of idolatry. I can accept that, and I’m always looking for evidences as to whether I am right or wrong.
How is the belief that what I believe is correct hypocrisy? If so, you are either a fool, not to follow those beliefs that you hold to be superior, or you yourself are the greatest of hypocrites, demanding that only you have the right to believe you are right. Indeed, your entire post flows with moral conviction, and if you were not misrepresenting what I have actually written to you and tracking off on side arguments, I would applaud you for the strength of your convictions. That’s not to say that I would agree with you, but in this culture where tolerance trumps truth, I always enjoy meeting someone who is a true believer.
Regarding Christianity’s quest of “spiritual domination,” I plead guilty with a couple of caveats. First, it is the direct command of our Lord and Savior that we spread the good news that He has atoned for our sins to the farthest reaches of the earth—and in our own neighborhoods. That is a central tenant of our faith, as important to us as observing Passover is to the Orthodox Jew. For you to attack it is most intolerant by your own stated standards.
But more to the point, you misunderstand the motive. Are you familiar with Avi Lipkin by any chance? He is an Orthodox Jew, but he also recognizes that “Evangelical Christians are not our best friends. They are our only friends.” In one speech I heard of his online, he said, “Do they want us to come to Jesus? Yes, because that is part of their faith and they love us.”
We are not out to dominate you. (Well, I’m sure some within Christianity get off-track motivationally, but I’m speaking for the majority of the Evangelical community, of which JfJ are a part.) We don’t believe that we get bonus points with God for the number of Jewish (or any other) conversions notched on our spiritual belts. Nor do we get special rewards programs in our churches. (“I converted two Jews this week.” “All right! Here, have a gold star.”)
The only reason any Christian puts himself on the line (whether psychologically in this country, or physically in many others) is because we believe that we have been redeemed by a sovereign act of God from our sins. We are fully convinced that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the whole world, and that it is only through Him that Man can approach God. (And we didn’t make that up out of the blue, any more than you did the kosher laws; it’s what Jesus and His apostles taught us.) We are secure in our salvation, because it is on the basis of our covenant relationship with Him rather than on our good works. And we want everyone else to have what we have. That’s called love.
Mind you, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy when Christians get annoyed at JWs or Mormons knocking on their doors. Myself, I love it when they show up.
But here’s the real point: You have compared us to Muslim jihadists. Oh really? Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus put a gun to your head—your own personal head—and told you to convert or die. Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus flew a plane into a building in Israel because the country would not convert to Christianity? No? You can’t? Then I suggest that you withdraw that hideous comparison.
Historically, you can gripe some, but you better know your history first. The first tensions between our two faiths came from Jews persecuting Christian Jews, not the other way around. We were also persecuted by the Romans. And the same Roman church that persecuted your adopted people also persecuted my spiritual ancestors, and killed them in incredible numbers. When my pilgrim ancestors started suffering persecution at the hands of the Anglican church, they fled to America just so that they could worship according to the dictates of their consciences. Historically speaking, true Christians have seen as much suffering as Jews at the hands of those masquerading and seizing power in Christ’s name.
I don’t want to get into a pissing contest with you about which group has suffered more; what I do want is for you to understand is that we have more in common than you seem to realize.
Frankly, I haven’t seen anyone call hell fire upon you; once again, you seem to be reading a whole lot into my post that just isn’t there. In fact, of the two of us, you have been FAR more judgmental than I—and you’ve mis-judged me at that. Please remove the 2x4 from your own eye before you try to pick at the mote in mine.
You also seem to overlook the fact that the one country in the world where the Jews have never, ever been in danger of being slaughtered en masse, where they have never had to flee from because of persecution, and which is the only country in the world to consistently support Israel and her right to exist, also happens to be the one country that was founded by and continues to hold large numbers of the evangelical Christians that you so despise and blame for all of the evils of the world. Perhaps you should keep that in mind when you spit out your vitriol. To paraphrase Lipkin again, we are not your best friends in the world—we are your ONLY friends. Please don’t spit in our faces.
Why are Jews so defensive about being evangelized by Christians? If you did a good job with this exercise, then you already know the answer to that question.
“Spiritual imperialism?”
As for a few other points, perhaps "imperialism" is a poor choice of words, since it connotes Communist accusations that are repeatedly, perniciously and wrongfully leveled at the U.S. But whether political or spiritual, a nation or a kingdom, an empire is still an empire.
Regarding Christianity’s quest of “spiritual domination,” I plead guilty with a couple of caveats. First, it is the direct command of our Lord and Savior that we spread the good news that He has atoned for our sins to the farthest reaches of the earth—and in our own neighborhoods. That is a central tenant of our faith, as important to us as observing Passover is to the Orthodox Jew. For you to attack it is most intolerant by your own stated standards.
Defending Judaism from attacks by Christianity is not an attack. To characterize my defense of my faith as intolerant is the deepest of ironies.
If you’re referring to me “bombarding” you
I'm not. Christians outnumber Jews by a prodigious amount in the Free Republic, the conservative movement and on this thread. Just count posts on the thread; it's self-evident. The bombardment is just the reality of being a tiny minority here. My comment was a reference to the simple fact that it is literally impossible for me to address every post which attacks Judaism. This is why most Jews don't bother anymore.
Obviously, the Jews for Jesus are seeing success if it’s come down to asking Big Brother to stop them—perhaps you should simply compete in the arena of ideas instead of trying to stack the deck with the government and violate the JfJ’s basic constitutional rights to speak their beliefs.
There is nothing in the article or any of my posts to suggest that anyone is doing this, or even wants to. This is a slanderous thing to say. Should I respond that perhaps you shouldn't try burning a cross on my lawn? Why even bother to post such nonsense? It leads nowhere.
To paraphrase Lipkin again, we are not your best friends in the world—we are your ONLY friends. Please don’t spit in our faces.
A very interesting way to end the post. How do you want me to feel about that? Have I spat in your face? You may want to ask me politely not to beat my wife, as well. Also, you may want to consider what brand of friendship you're offering.
All in all, as predictable as the rising and setting of the sun, broaching this topic leads to where we are now.
As I have pointed out, I have been on both sides of this issue. Without launching into an autobiography, suffice it to say that I've been around the block a few times as a Christian, and know a thing or two about it. Judaism I am still studying, and I am by no means an expert, but it is encouraging that every step I take in studying it leads to greater happiness and understanding. That cannot be a bad thing.
I am not expecting you to consider me an authority on anything other than my own opinions, a very small number of which I have shared here, and incompletely at that. I think I understand this particular set of issues quite well, thank you, but am unconvinced that the majority of people who have contributed to this thread have any idea of what they're doing when they attack Judaism, the people who practice it and even the people who defend it.
If you really wish to have a better understanding of this issue, try putting yourself in the shoes of a Jew for a little while. Then read threads like this one. It is far more enlightening than anything I could tell you.
P.S. I like your tagline. Bear in mind that Jews save at +10 versus spiritual attacks. ;^)
Or, if you wish, you can simply discard your false religion and join the One True Faith: Judaism.
Moses loves you! :^)
Yes, the Apostles were Jews, Jews for Jesus. The early Church was mostly Jewish, Jews for Jesus. One of the biggest questions in the earliest Church was what place would the Gentiles have? This was, after all a VERY Jewish thing going on, after all, Messiah had come, as written in the Hebrew Scriptures that He would come, was crucified, as written in the Hebrew Scriptures, and was resurected again , as written in the Hebrew Scriptures. You mention how 3 Jewish men learned that their sons had found the Messiah of Israel and when they called out to Hashem, His response was the same. Why should you be suprised? I am a Jewish woman who has also put my trust in this Jewish Messiah Yeshua (who by the way was not a Christian). He lived His entire life as an observant Jew. If you want to read more about Yeshua, study the Hebrew Scriptures, because all of the Apostles and the early church knew Him only through what had been written about Him way before they met Him personally. You see, G-d writes prophecy as history. Shalom!!
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