There is no way you will accept anything that I have to say on the topic as perhaps actually being true, as your posts make clear. That is not an attack on you, but a candid observation from my end of the discussion. Been here and done this a thousand times, believe me.
I posted originally to point out why I think what Jews for Jesus does is wrong. The responses are extremely revealing for those willing to read them honestly. The Righteous Indignation Meter reads high for those who take offense to Jews defending themselves from spiritual imperialism and not opening their hearts to the joy and love of everlasting salvation through Christ Jesus. They make B'nai Brith's case more eloquently than I ever could.
Instead of understanding or even acknowledgement that just maybe Jews may have a right to take offense to aggressive evangelism that amounts to no less than an attack on our religion by people who have the nerve to say the covenant between God and the people of Israel is superseded by Christianity, I am, for the most part, bombarded with more of the same nonsense (with some brilliant exceptions, and thank you so much for those!).
What am I to say to people who take mortal umbrage at Muslims trying to get them to demote Jesus to a "prophet second to Mohammed", and yet cannot understand why Jews will not promote Jesus to the status of God? This is made all the more frustrating by the fact the we can't promote Jesus to godhood, because we have never been given that authority.
There is one God, and one God only. This is the foundation of Judaism, without which it has no meaning at all. The one thing we Jews do more than any other is proclaim the truth that God is one. Millions of Jews have died throughout the centuries rather than renounce the true God of Israel. Does this mean nothing to you?
Can you consider the possibility that just maybe we might be right not to do so? Or will you instead insist on continuing the spirited attacks on the very essence of who we are that have been waged unceasingly upon us for centuries?
It is hypocrisy embodied, and it is a defining characteristic of Christianity and its mission of spiritual domination over the hearts, minds and souls of mankind. That this also describes the goal of Islam is telling. For when Muslims seek to force conversion to Islam, it is "evil", but when Christians seek to do the exact same thing, it is "good". There can be no truth in such thinking. The fact is that they are both evil.
The first two commandments and the tales told in the Torah and the scrolls spell it out plainly enough. After suffering so much for idolatry and the worship of false gods so many times in the past, are we to break these commandments again? We finally got it right, please don't try to take that away from us.
It is also true that most (but thankfully not all) Christians are some of the most difficult of all people to try to reason with, because there can only be one way for them: their way. To not agree on all points is "sin" and a one-way ticket to Hell. It would be comical if it were not so tragic, and had it not caused so much sadness and grief in the world, whitewashed into the "good news" and "everlasting life" for the victims of this spiritual thuggery.
For posting these things, I am sure I will be banished to Hell by the Christians who choose to usurp God's throne, sitting in judgment of others, instead of bowing to Him and His infinite wisdom. Perhaps I will even banished from the Free Republic, although I have not known Jim Robinson to ban people for speaking candidly and forthrightly about what they believe (unless it is virulently anti-conservative, but I am a Conservative Jew, so we'll see where that goes).
Rather, I am sure I will have the hell fire of Christian wrath called down upon me, and indeed am wrapping my computer with virtual asbestos tape as I write this. The fact that I even feel the need to do so should mean something to those who inspire such reticence to express my views. Can there truly be any advantage to convincing people they are better off not telling you what they actually think?
I know better than to speak candidly where Christianity is concerned, but have foolishly thrown caution to the winds anyway (I'm only human). The results of my indiscretion were mostly predictable, but some responses were surprising and refreshing.
The ever-expanding and ultimately tedious posts of point/counterpoint are an inevitable result of posting any belief contrary to the prevailing ones here, as anywhere, but they grow particularly well in the soil of religious and spiritual conviction. Whether or not I will choose to speak so candidly about Judaism and Christianity again in another thread, I don't know, but this has been a more educational experience than I had expected. Who knows, perhaps I may not be cowed into silence after all. Time will tell.
It is especially ironic to see posts from some of you "Christian debaters" out there, making the legal and logical case for Jesus, because I used to be one myself in high school in Utah, driven as a Baptist to convince my Mormon friends of the falsehoods and spiritual perils of Mormonism. God is nothing if not just, and has a truly divine sense of humor, so I guess it's payback time for me in that regard.
Seeing it from the other side is enlightening, that's for sure. As you dissect and analyze my words, seeking cracks and flaws into which the lever of the gospel might be inserted, bear in mind, I have done the same thing many times myself with the words of others, with the same noble goal of "saving" their immortal souls fixed squarely in my mind and with songs of praise in my heart.
To those of you willing and able to discuss topics like this intelligently and thoughtfully, I give my gratitude. Your insights are refreshing and speak of the goodness in your hearts.
To those who are blinded with rage by my heretical words and feel compelled to "testify", "take a stand for what's right", "make me see the truth of Jesus' salvation" or just plain try to shout me down, I say flame away, because you will anyway, giving me the metaphysical lash in manners both overt and subtle, as you so love to do.
Just remember though, you cannot give me hell unless it is yours to give. Consider that carefully, and go with God.
You’ve given me no reason to, to be blunt. Your previous post was an attempt to mischaracterize me, even to the point of accusing me of trying to take away your right to believe as you will. You did not defend the premise that one could reach God multiple ways; in fact, as I pointed out, you took several hard-nosed stances regarding what honors God and what He is like, such as your statement that God is everywhere. You can’t have it both ways.
“Spiritual imperialism?” It’s now “imperialism” to debate ideas in a public arena? To share your beliefs with others? If so, you yourself are guilty of it, given that you have shared your beliefs in detail on this forum.
Instead of understanding or even acknowledgement that just maybe Jews may have a right to take offense to aggressive evangelism that amounts to no less than an attack on our religion by people who have the nerve to say the covenant between God and the people of Israel is superseded by Christianity, I am, for the most part, bombarded with more of the same nonsense (with some brilliant exceptions, and thank you so much for those!).
If you’re referring to me “bombarding” you, you obviously haven’t read my post. I made one post to another Freeper explaining why Jesus did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies in one coming, but that wasn’t even addressed to you. The only point I have pressed to you is the plain and simple fact that both sides cannot be right, and since both sides cannot be right, we owe it to God to have open dialogue rather than vindictive attempts to use the government to silence discussion.
No one has a right not to be evangelized, beyond the right to say “no thank you” when someone starts a discussion. Obviously, the Jews for Jesus are seeing success if it’s come down to asking Big Brother to stop them—perhaps you should simply compete in the arena of ideas instead of trying to stack the deck with the government and violate the JfJ’s basic constitutional rights to speak their beliefs.
Frankly, most of your arguments against me have nothing to do with my original post or my follow-up post. You appear to be having a knee-jerk reaction, anticipating all sorts of horrid boogymen out to convert you rather than simply responding to the exact words that I have written to you. Perhaps, as I suggested in my last post, you should stop trying to psychoanalyze me, and simply respond to my original stance and the supporting arguments I have made since then.
Let me repeat, since you seem to keep missing the mark: I have not yet (and I really never intended to, unless you were interested in an off-forum discussion) built my case for why I believe Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel and the world. All I have done is pointed out that the “all roads lead to God; do whatever is right for you” approach is sloppy thinking, and expressed my belief that sloppy thinking and a hazy logic for the sake of feeling comfortable dishonors God, putting our own comfort above Him.
You still have not responded to that. Instead, you have gone on an oversensitive rampage, throwing out arguments on everything except what I actually wrote. Frankly, given the evidence of hypersensitivity, exaggeration, and false accusation displayed here, I have to wonder if you might be exaggerating about just how the JfJs came to your synagogue.
Just for the sake of completeness, let’s hit your other points: I don’t get morally offended at the Muslim who doesn’t agree that Isa is the Son of God; I simply disagree with them. However, I do have a couple of Muslim friends who come from a liberal sect who, like you, like to say that it doesn’t matter, and I’ve taken issue with their logic as well.
We agree that there is one God. What we disagree on is whether He can have more than one aspect. I believe in a God who is complicated enough to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all at once. Many Jewish rabbis have agreed that God is complex in His essence, like those of a kabalistic persuasion who have drawn up the Sephiroth. I further believe that if you believe the prophets of the tanakh, that the Messiah would have to be God to fulfill all of their expectations. I’m not going to go into a verse-by-verse expose now, because that has never been my point to you. If you wish to continue this discussion in that area, please contact me by email or Freepmail.
I have indeed considered the possibility that the Jews might be right. I have studied the subject in great detail, including what I have been able to find of your own rabbis expectations (before the advent of Christianity) of what the Messiah would be like. I have sought out and spoken to Jews who knew their faith to get them to challenge me. And I have become even more convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah in the process, not less.
But that’s not the point I made that sent you on this emotional tirade (and make no mistake, your arguments have been entirely emotional up to this point). The point is that we cannot both be correct and both be honoring God as He should be honored. If I’m wrong, then I’m guilty of idolatry. I can accept that, and I’m always looking for evidences as to whether I am right or wrong.
How is the belief that what I believe is correct hypocrisy? If so, you are either a fool, not to follow those beliefs that you hold to be superior, or you yourself are the greatest of hypocrites, demanding that only you have the right to believe you are right. Indeed, your entire post flows with moral conviction, and if you were not misrepresenting what I have actually written to you and tracking off on side arguments, I would applaud you for the strength of your convictions. That’s not to say that I would agree with you, but in this culture where tolerance trumps truth, I always enjoy meeting someone who is a true believer.
Regarding Christianity’s quest of “spiritual domination,” I plead guilty with a couple of caveats. First, it is the direct command of our Lord and Savior that we spread the good news that He has atoned for our sins to the farthest reaches of the earth—and in our own neighborhoods. That is a central tenant of our faith, as important to us as observing Passover is to the Orthodox Jew. For you to attack it is most intolerant by your own stated standards.
But more to the point, you misunderstand the motive. Are you familiar with Avi Lipkin by any chance? He is an Orthodox Jew, but he also recognizes that “Evangelical Christians are not our best friends. They are our only friends.” In one speech I heard of his online, he said, “Do they want us to come to Jesus? Yes, because that is part of their faith and they love us.”
We are not out to dominate you. (Well, I’m sure some within Christianity get off-track motivationally, but I’m speaking for the majority of the Evangelical community, of which JfJ are a part.) We don’t believe that we get bonus points with God for the number of Jewish (or any other) conversions notched on our spiritual belts. Nor do we get special rewards programs in our churches. (“I converted two Jews this week.” “All right! Here, have a gold star.”)
The only reason any Christian puts himself on the line (whether psychologically in this country, or physically in many others) is because we believe that we have been redeemed by a sovereign act of God from our sins. We are fully convinced that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the whole world, and that it is only through Him that Man can approach God. (And we didn’t make that up out of the blue, any more than you did the kosher laws; it’s what Jesus and His apostles taught us.) We are secure in our salvation, because it is on the basis of our covenant relationship with Him rather than on our good works. And we want everyone else to have what we have. That’s called love.
Mind you, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy when Christians get annoyed at JWs or Mormons knocking on their doors. Myself, I love it when they show up.
But here’s the real point: You have compared us to Muslim jihadists. Oh really? Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus put a gun to your head—your own personal head—and told you to convert or die. Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus flew a plane into a building in Israel because the country would not convert to Christianity? No? You can’t? Then I suggest that you withdraw that hideous comparison.
Historically, you can gripe some, but you better know your history first. The first tensions between our two faiths came from Jews persecuting Christian Jews, not the other way around. We were also persecuted by the Romans. And the same Roman church that persecuted your adopted people also persecuted my spiritual ancestors, and killed them in incredible numbers. When my pilgrim ancestors started suffering persecution at the hands of the Anglican church, they fled to America just so that they could worship according to the dictates of their consciences. Historically speaking, true Christians have seen as much suffering as Jews at the hands of those masquerading and seizing power in Christ’s name.
I don’t want to get into a pissing contest with you about which group has suffered more; what I do want is for you to understand is that we have more in common than you seem to realize.
Frankly, I haven’t seen anyone call hell fire upon you; once again, you seem to be reading a whole lot into my post that just isn’t there. In fact, of the two of us, you have been FAR more judgmental than I—and you’ve mis-judged me at that. Please remove the 2x4 from your own eye before you try to pick at the mote in mine.
You also seem to overlook the fact that the one country in the world where the Jews have never, ever been in danger of being slaughtered en masse, where they have never had to flee from because of persecution, and which is the only country in the world to consistently support Israel and her right to exist, also happens to be the one country that was founded by and continues to hold large numbers of the evangelical Christians that you so despise and blame for all of the evils of the world. Perhaps you should keep that in mind when you spit out your vitriol. To paraphrase Lipkin again, we are not your best friends in the world—we are your ONLY friends. Please don’t spit in our faces.