You’ve given me no reason to, to be blunt. Your previous post was an attempt to mischaracterize me, even to the point of accusing me of trying to take away your right to believe as you will. You did not defend the premise that one could reach God multiple ways; in fact, as I pointed out, you took several hard-nosed stances regarding what honors God and what He is like, such as your statement that God is everywhere. You can’t have it both ways.
“Spiritual imperialism?” It’s now “imperialism” to debate ideas in a public arena? To share your beliefs with others? If so, you yourself are guilty of it, given that you have shared your beliefs in detail on this forum.
Instead of understanding or even acknowledgement that just maybe Jews may have a right to take offense to aggressive evangelism that amounts to no less than an attack on our religion by people who have the nerve to say the covenant between God and the people of Israel is superseded by Christianity, I am, for the most part, bombarded with more of the same nonsense (with some brilliant exceptions, and thank you so much for those!).
If you’re referring to me “bombarding” you, you obviously haven’t read my post. I made one post to another Freeper explaining why Jesus did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies in one coming, but that wasn’t even addressed to you. The only point I have pressed to you is the plain and simple fact that both sides cannot be right, and since both sides cannot be right, we owe it to God to have open dialogue rather than vindictive attempts to use the government to silence discussion.
No one has a right not to be evangelized, beyond the right to say “no thank you” when someone starts a discussion. Obviously, the Jews for Jesus are seeing success if it’s come down to asking Big Brother to stop them—perhaps you should simply compete in the arena of ideas instead of trying to stack the deck with the government and violate the JfJ’s basic constitutional rights to speak their beliefs.
Frankly, most of your arguments against me have nothing to do with my original post or my follow-up post. You appear to be having a knee-jerk reaction, anticipating all sorts of horrid boogymen out to convert you rather than simply responding to the exact words that I have written to you. Perhaps, as I suggested in my last post, you should stop trying to psychoanalyze me, and simply respond to my original stance and the supporting arguments I have made since then.
Let me repeat, since you seem to keep missing the mark: I have not yet (and I really never intended to, unless you were interested in an off-forum discussion) built my case for why I believe Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel and the world. All I have done is pointed out that the “all roads lead to God; do whatever is right for you” approach is sloppy thinking, and expressed my belief that sloppy thinking and a hazy logic for the sake of feeling comfortable dishonors God, putting our own comfort above Him.
You still have not responded to that. Instead, you have gone on an oversensitive rampage, throwing out arguments on everything except what I actually wrote. Frankly, given the evidence of hypersensitivity, exaggeration, and false accusation displayed here, I have to wonder if you might be exaggerating about just how the JfJs came to your synagogue.
Just for the sake of completeness, let’s hit your other points: I don’t get morally offended at the Muslim who doesn’t agree that Isa is the Son of God; I simply disagree with them. However, I do have a couple of Muslim friends who come from a liberal sect who, like you, like to say that it doesn’t matter, and I’ve taken issue with their logic as well.
We agree that there is one God. What we disagree on is whether He can have more than one aspect. I believe in a God who is complicated enough to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all at once. Many Jewish rabbis have agreed that God is complex in His essence, like those of a kabalistic persuasion who have drawn up the Sephiroth. I further believe that if you believe the prophets of the tanakh, that the Messiah would have to be God to fulfill all of their expectations. I’m not going to go into a verse-by-verse expose now, because that has never been my point to you. If you wish to continue this discussion in that area, please contact me by email or Freepmail.
I have indeed considered the possibility that the Jews might be right. I have studied the subject in great detail, including what I have been able to find of your own rabbis expectations (before the advent of Christianity) of what the Messiah would be like. I have sought out and spoken to Jews who knew their faith to get them to challenge me. And I have become even more convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah in the process, not less.
But that’s not the point I made that sent you on this emotional tirade (and make no mistake, your arguments have been entirely emotional up to this point). The point is that we cannot both be correct and both be honoring God as He should be honored. If I’m wrong, then I’m guilty of idolatry. I can accept that, and I’m always looking for evidences as to whether I am right or wrong.
How is the belief that what I believe is correct hypocrisy? If so, you are either a fool, not to follow those beliefs that you hold to be superior, or you yourself are the greatest of hypocrites, demanding that only you have the right to believe you are right. Indeed, your entire post flows with moral conviction, and if you were not misrepresenting what I have actually written to you and tracking off on side arguments, I would applaud you for the strength of your convictions. That’s not to say that I would agree with you, but in this culture where tolerance trumps truth, I always enjoy meeting someone who is a true believer.
Regarding Christianity’s quest of “spiritual domination,” I plead guilty with a couple of caveats. First, it is the direct command of our Lord and Savior that we spread the good news that He has atoned for our sins to the farthest reaches of the earth—and in our own neighborhoods. That is a central tenant of our faith, as important to us as observing Passover is to the Orthodox Jew. For you to attack it is most intolerant by your own stated standards.
But more to the point, you misunderstand the motive. Are you familiar with Avi Lipkin by any chance? He is an Orthodox Jew, but he also recognizes that “Evangelical Christians are not our best friends. They are our only friends.” In one speech I heard of his online, he said, “Do they want us to come to Jesus? Yes, because that is part of their faith and they love us.”
We are not out to dominate you. (Well, I’m sure some within Christianity get off-track motivationally, but I’m speaking for the majority of the Evangelical community, of which JfJ are a part.) We don’t believe that we get bonus points with God for the number of Jewish (or any other) conversions notched on our spiritual belts. Nor do we get special rewards programs in our churches. (“I converted two Jews this week.” “All right! Here, have a gold star.”)
The only reason any Christian puts himself on the line (whether psychologically in this country, or physically in many others) is because we believe that we have been redeemed by a sovereign act of God from our sins. We are fully convinced that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the whole world, and that it is only through Him that Man can approach God. (And we didn’t make that up out of the blue, any more than you did the kosher laws; it’s what Jesus and His apostles taught us.) We are secure in our salvation, because it is on the basis of our covenant relationship with Him rather than on our good works. And we want everyone else to have what we have. That’s called love.
Mind you, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy when Christians get annoyed at JWs or Mormons knocking on their doors. Myself, I love it when they show up.
But here’s the real point: You have compared us to Muslim jihadists. Oh really? Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus put a gun to your head—your own personal head—and told you to convert or die. Please tell me about the time a Jew for Jesus flew a plane into a building in Israel because the country would not convert to Christianity? No? You can’t? Then I suggest that you withdraw that hideous comparison.
Historically, you can gripe some, but you better know your history first. The first tensions between our two faiths came from Jews persecuting Christian Jews, not the other way around. We were also persecuted by the Romans. And the same Roman church that persecuted your adopted people also persecuted my spiritual ancestors, and killed them in incredible numbers. When my pilgrim ancestors started suffering persecution at the hands of the Anglican church, they fled to America just so that they could worship according to the dictates of their consciences. Historically speaking, true Christians have seen as much suffering as Jews at the hands of those masquerading and seizing power in Christ’s name.
I don’t want to get into a pissing contest with you about which group has suffered more; what I do want is for you to understand is that we have more in common than you seem to realize.
Frankly, I haven’t seen anyone call hell fire upon you; once again, you seem to be reading a whole lot into my post that just isn’t there. In fact, of the two of us, you have been FAR more judgmental than I—and you’ve mis-judged me at that. Please remove the 2x4 from your own eye before you try to pick at the mote in mine.
You also seem to overlook the fact that the one country in the world where the Jews have never, ever been in danger of being slaughtered en masse, where they have never had to flee from because of persecution, and which is the only country in the world to consistently support Israel and her right to exist, also happens to be the one country that was founded by and continues to hold large numbers of the evangelical Christians that you so despise and blame for all of the evils of the world. Perhaps you should keep that in mind when you spit out your vitriol. To paraphrase Lipkin again, we are not your best friends in the world—we are your ONLY friends. Please don’t spit in our faces.
Why are Jews so defensive about being evangelized by Christians? If you did a good job with this exercise, then you already know the answer to that question.
“Spiritual imperialism?”
As for a few other points, perhaps "imperialism" is a poor choice of words, since it connotes Communist accusations that are repeatedly, perniciously and wrongfully leveled at the U.S. But whether political or spiritual, a nation or a kingdom, an empire is still an empire.
Regarding Christianity’s quest of “spiritual domination,” I plead guilty with a couple of caveats. First, it is the direct command of our Lord and Savior that we spread the good news that He has atoned for our sins to the farthest reaches of the earth—and in our own neighborhoods. That is a central tenant of our faith, as important to us as observing Passover is to the Orthodox Jew. For you to attack it is most intolerant by your own stated standards.
Defending Judaism from attacks by Christianity is not an attack. To characterize my defense of my faith as intolerant is the deepest of ironies.
If you’re referring to me “bombarding” you
I'm not. Christians outnumber Jews by a prodigious amount in the Free Republic, the conservative movement and on this thread. Just count posts on the thread; it's self-evident. The bombardment is just the reality of being a tiny minority here. My comment was a reference to the simple fact that it is literally impossible for me to address every post which attacks Judaism. This is why most Jews don't bother anymore.
Obviously, the Jews for Jesus are seeing success if it’s come down to asking Big Brother to stop them—perhaps you should simply compete in the arena of ideas instead of trying to stack the deck with the government and violate the JfJ’s basic constitutional rights to speak their beliefs.
There is nothing in the article or any of my posts to suggest that anyone is doing this, or even wants to. This is a slanderous thing to say. Should I respond that perhaps you shouldn't try burning a cross on my lawn? Why even bother to post such nonsense? It leads nowhere.
To paraphrase Lipkin again, we are not your best friends in the world—we are your ONLY friends. Please don’t spit in our faces.
A very interesting way to end the post. How do you want me to feel about that? Have I spat in your face? You may want to ask me politely not to beat my wife, as well. Also, you may want to consider what brand of friendship you're offering.
All in all, as predictable as the rising and setting of the sun, broaching this topic leads to where we are now.
As I have pointed out, I have been on both sides of this issue. Without launching into an autobiography, suffice it to say that I've been around the block a few times as a Christian, and know a thing or two about it. Judaism I am still studying, and I am by no means an expert, but it is encouraging that every step I take in studying it leads to greater happiness and understanding. That cannot be a bad thing.
I am not expecting you to consider me an authority on anything other than my own opinions, a very small number of which I have shared here, and incompletely at that. I think I understand this particular set of issues quite well, thank you, but am unconvinced that the majority of people who have contributed to this thread have any idea of what they're doing when they attack Judaism, the people who practice it and even the people who defend it.
If you really wish to have a better understanding of this issue, try putting yourself in the shoes of a Jew for a little while. Then read threads like this one. It is far more enlightening than anything I could tell you.
P.S. I like your tagline. Bear in mind that Jews save at +10 versus spiritual attacks. ;^)