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Is it on the talking points from the DNC to question President Bush's wisdom in using faith related speech and quotes. This is the fourth or fifth article I have run across in the past couple of days, whining that it is causing divisiveness.
1 posted on 02/16/2003 5:28:44 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: Utah Girl; All
The biggest boost "candidate" Bush got at the beginning of the campaign was when he was not ashamed to speak of his faith.

Again ... just like all the other garbage these disgusting people put forth ... this one will really bite them in the behind.

As a Christian, I am not only outraged, I am extremely offended by their assumptions. Since THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS, who are they to judge my Christianity!!

As for divisiveness - the democrats are the only ones causing that - and they know it - and this is their usual method of projecting upon the President the very thing they are doing. This is the same old, same old ... and it just isn't going to work anymore.
37 posted on 02/16/2003 6:25:52 PM PST by CyberAnt ( Yo! Syracuse)
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To: Utah Girl
From The Deseret News (?!?!): "Whatever faith's actual influence on policymaking may be, however, it offers no guarantee for effective decisions. Indeed, history suggests that strict religious doctrine can lead to black-and-white reasoning, especially during war."

Why the heck is The Deseret News running this?

Oh, wait, they're just reprinting something from Newsday/Los Angeles Times/Washington Times...

Never mind.

43 posted on 02/16/2003 6:44:31 PM PST by Victoria_R (Thought someone at the Deseret News was actually THINKING for themselves...)
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To: Utah Girl
The article really doesn't say much of anything at all. It is basicially an organizational mess, reflecting probably the mess of the mind that tapped it out during his coffee break.
47 posted on 02/16/2003 6:53:52 PM PST by Torie
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To: Utah Girl
Less "spiritual" advisers could, become marginalized, their input lost in a moralistic haze.

Yes, and I "could" sprout wings and fly, but right now, there is no evidence that it will happen.

However noble the gentle, non-combative temperament of Evangelicals may be, decisionmaking sometimes requires passionate disagreement.

Anyone who thinks that evangelical Christians are non-combative and incapable of passionate disagreement has obviously never been to a church budget meeting.

Lyndon Johnson's un-Christian-like deviousness helped persuade legislators to pass the most important civil rights bills since Reconstruction.

The Johnson administration's bills also led to the destruction of poorer families, many of whom were minorities. We still haven't overcome the negative effects of his policies. Enforcing civil right was the right thing to do, but a little wisdom leavened into his policy-making might have brought equal rights and the healthy families that would unite everyone.

But sociological studies on the nature of professional conduct in organizational settings suggest that leaders who rely on religious templates when making decisions are less likely to make good decisions than those who consult experienced authority.

Sociologists are unbiased judges of this idea? Try again.

In weighing the momentous options over Iraq, the best question asked might not be what would Jesus do, but what might our best presidents have advised? God will hopefully serve Bush well. But he might leave room for humility, the lessons of history and his often heralded instincts, street-smarts and common sense.

The evidence that Bush lacks humility is? I've been out of church for many years, but I'm experienced with relgious conservatives. I've yet to see any evidence that President Bush lacks the humility needed to realize that God isn't speaking to him from a burning bush in the Rose Garden. I could understand having this concern about some people I've met, but this guy doesn't seem to be watching the same George W. Bush that I've been watching for the past three or four years.

I'm with Utah Girl. This article is just trying to knock down a DNC talking points straw man. The whole thing is silly.

Texas Wasn't Kuwait
Bill

50 posted on 02/16/2003 7:23:02 PM PST by WFTR
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To: Utah Girl
bump
53 posted on 02/16/2003 7:56:54 PM PST by foreverfree
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To: Utah Girl
Well at least Bush is looking for guidance in all the right places and not under some skirt.
54 posted on 02/16/2003 8:04:27 PM PST by dalebert
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To: Utah Girl
Is it on the talking points from the DNC to question President Bush's wisdom in using faith related speech and quotes?

Fax machines never sleep.

55 posted on 02/16/2003 8:06:59 PM PST by dighton
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To: Utah Girl
Some Christians are to be the peacemakers, while others are to be the warriors. Christianity is not an excuse for timidity nor a reason to accept treatment like a doormat.
57 posted on 02/16/2003 8:13:21 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave)
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To: Utah Girl
I weighing the momentous options over Iraq, the best question asked might not be what would Jesus do, but what might our best presidents have advised? God will hopefully serve Bush well. But he might leave room for humility, the lessons of history and his often heralded instincts, street-smarts and common sense.

It'd be difficult to find a more deliciously ironic and hubristic statement than this. Mr. Henggeler, for one, might consider whether there's any room for humility in his own bloated self-assessment.

58 posted on 02/16/2003 8:15:14 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Utah Girl
I believe our President is doing exactly what our best Presidents, Reagan and Bush I would have done-case closed.
61 posted on 02/16/2003 8:20:39 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell (Our best Presidents will never be given the credit due them by the liberals media..)
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To: Utah Girl
The DnC crowd and other assorted liberals, anti-Americans, etc., prove on a daily basis that they are completely clueless regarding faith-based decisions.


"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." -from THE BIBLE: II Timothy 1:7

65 posted on 02/16/2003 8:29:37 PM PST by Cindy
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To: Utah Girl
The faith upon which our most admired presidents drew strength was usually more ambiguous than Bush's and balanced with a rich humanity.

What garbage!!!!! The left is getting desperate now aren't they? Several articles attacking the President's faith? This is a new low.

Clinton was always blabbing about his faith and carrying a king sized Bible around. Did you hear anything about how dangerous that was? No! They will stoop to anything to attack W and I for one am getting more than sick of this!

The above statement is presuming that the faith of our former President's was less than genuine! How the heck do they know that? SHEESH!!!!! Same tactics they used to defend Clinton when they said that all President's were unfaithful to their wives!

69 posted on 02/16/2003 8:41:43 PM PST by ladyinred
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To: Utah Girl
Eleanor Roosevelt once asked her husband if he was convinced of the truth of Christian doctrine. "I never really thought much about it," he said. "I think it is just as well not to think about things like that too much."

Roosevelt, the patron saint of liberals, is the archetypical example of the elitist secular-humanist. He was one of the worst presidents this country ever had.

If a human being doesn't at least consider the teachings of Jesus or the meaning and purpose of life and death worth some serious thought, he's wasting his human life. What a shallow person.

70 posted on 02/16/2003 8:48:29 PM PST by First Amendment
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To: Utah Girl
Ok, my response to this issue…

President Bush acknowledges that without Christ he would be in the same boat he was in years ago. He prays, uses the Bible to guide him, and looks to Jesus as an example. He quotes Scripture in his speeches and places his faith in God, not man.

It is no surprise to see him attacked for his belief in God. I have heard people state that he should not mention God or the Bible in his remarks and speeches because it is oppressive to those who do not follow the “Christian” God. I have seen people state that it is a violation of the Constitution for him to do so and then they quote the 1st Amendment and claim he is attempting to “turn this nation into a theocracy”. That is ludicrous.

President Bush’s faith may not be a guarantee for effective decisions, but one must take into consideration the extenuating circumstances involved in the final decisions of a President.

The article states, “Indeed, history suggests that strict religious doctrine can lead to black-and-white reasoning, especially during war.” It is my opinion that there are no gray areas where war is concerned, especially the pending war with Iraq.

“In weighing the momentous options over Iraq, the best question asked might not be what would Jesus do, but what might our best presidents have advised?”

This question/statement places the opinion of man over the example of Christ, does it not? Personally, I am not surprised to see this.
71 posted on 02/16/2003 9:13:33 PM PST by snerkel (Warning: My opinion has been known to offend some people :))
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To: Utah Girl
But sociological studies on the nature of professional conduct in organizational settings suggest that leaders who rely on religious templates when making decisions are less likely to make good decisions than those who consult experienced authority.

Wonder who made up the studies?

First, Andrew Greeley's sociological studies show that religious people tend to be more mature in other sociological measurements.

Second, I once attende a business seminar. One point the researcher brought up was that when he gave his talk to businessmen, he often afterward asked them if they prayed. He said that an amazing number of them did, but seemed to feel that few other businessmen did. "they were so eager to talk about it (how they prayed and how prayer fit into their business life) that they often would even drive me to the airport to have more time to discuss it."

Of course if you note the language, the article mentions "those who rely on religious templates"...this means people who don't think, and don't pray, but rely on a rigid belief system where actions are determined by a rigid rule system. I have relatives who act like this. I always say that they give "born again" Christians a bad name, because they project their obsessive compulsive traits onto religion. They take one rule out of context and use it to condemn other people. But of course most born again people are remade in the Lord: They recognize their sin was forgiven, and therefore are humble.

The author is showing their ignorance of religion, especially of Born again religion. They think the anti religious caricatures they see on tv are real.

73 posted on 02/16/2003 10:22:01 PM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: Utah Girl
"In weighing the momentous options over Iraq, the best question asked might not be what would Jesus do, but what might our best presidents have advised? God will hopefully serve Bush well. But he might leave room for humility, the lessons of history and his often heralded instincts, street-smarts and common sense."

Oh, good grief. IMHO, this article says more about the writer's level of faith than the president's. Yes, President Bush is a Christian who starts each day reading the Bible and in prayer. And every night before I close my eyes I thank God we have this humble and courageous man as our President in these troubled times.

The assertion that,".. leaders who rely on religious templates when making decisions are less likely to make good decisions than those who consult experienced authority..." is a non-starter, people of deep abiding faith not only asks for God's guidance but for wisdom as well. Perhaps he had already consulted with experts or perhaps it was just God given wisdom that prompted him to tell his predecessor's wife that before we take action against terrorist in Afghanistan he wanted to be sure he wasn't sending a $20M missile through a $10.00 tent just to hit a camel in the butt

President Bush lives his faith unashamedly everyday and has said on more than one occasion he prays for guidance. Still, he doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve like some Bible thumping fanatic nor does he try to impose his beliefs on persons of other faiths. He is the President of the United States, to him that means all the people, of all faiths not just the Christian right and not just Republicans. Had this reporter bothered to listen to the nomination acceptance speech that then Governor Bush delivered at the RNC Convention the importance of his faith would have been apparent long ago. In his own words:

""I believe in tolerance, not in spite of my faith, but because of it.

I believe in a God who calls us, not to judge our neighbors, but to love them.

I believe in grace, because I have seen it ... In peace, because I have felt it ... In forgiveness, because I have needed it.

I believe true leadership is a process of addition, not an act of division. I will not attack a part of this country, because I want to lead the whole of it." - George W Bush, August 2000, RNC nomination


74 posted on 02/16/2003 11:07:13 PM PST by Darlin' (The choice is clear, you stand with us or you stand with terrorist)
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To: Utah Girl
Oh, Heaven forbid that we should alienate Satanists, heathens and athiests.

/sarcasm

75 posted on 02/17/2003 2:50:28 AM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Utah Girl
this is the dumbest chit I have read in days
77 posted on 02/17/2003 2:53:39 AM PST by The Wizard (Demonrats are enemies of America)
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To: Utah Girl
A devout Presbyterian, Woodrow Wilson believed God ordained him to be president. "God save us from compromise," he once noted. "He who is not with me is against me." He defined America's entrance into the Great War as a moral crusade from which good must arise.

Actually, Wilson boasted of having outperformed Jesus. Our Lord, Wilson said, could only advocate "Peace on earth." His better, none other than WW, had actually implemented a "scheme" to bring the desired outcome to pass.

Wilson parted company with reality in the aftermath of committing adultery while president of Princeton.

79 posted on 02/17/2003 6:35:42 AM PST by TomSmedley
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To: Utah Girl

"We now learn from "The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush," a new book by ex-speechwriter and conservative thinker David Frum, that White House advisers attend Bible study groups not because they are required to but because they are expected to."

Ummm...  I thought these are totally voluntary.  I dont see Bush as some theocratic boss forcing his employees into religious meetings.  He is a spiritual person and have heard through Fleisher that anyone who wants to go, goes.
80 posted on 02/17/2003 6:46:03 AM PST by smith288 (Fromage mangeant des singes d'abdication)
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