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He makes many good points but fails to mention those of us 30-something women with successfull careers, financial stability, education, better than decent looks, and no guy to snuggle (or other) with on a cold night.

I'm not steeped in feminism. I listen to it with disdain, hearing it daily as I do from my much younger coworkers. But they have dates come Friday. They may screw up those dates with their none too subtle Gandylike views, but they do have dates.

So the good guys end up choosing those with aspirations to Nannydom and Tupperware parties. Could it be that they ARE afraid of those with more than two brain cells to rub together? And yes, I am donning the Nanny flame suit as I write this? (I actually like Nannies. I've found them very convenient, hard working, dependable.....)

1 posted on 02/03/2003 6:13:20 PM PST by softengine
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To: softengine
Fear may be a reason, but one can't discount the competitive reason also. When a man sees an advesary, in this case - as stupid as it sounds - a woman who is trying to take over the pack, the primitive reptilian brain kicks in and does the flight or fight thing. The fight thing in this case is to deny what his competitor wants, and in this case - again as stupid as this sounds - what she wants has been programmed into her own version of the reptilian brain.
2 posted on 02/03/2003 6:20:43 PM PST by Archangelsk (Remember the Apollo I 3, the Challenger 7, the Columbia 7 and above all the heroes of 911)
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To: softengine
Let me lay out the path: Dating, Courtship, Marriage, Children, Divorce papers, Wife goes nuclear...falsely claims child abuse, Man left pennyless.

And there is a shortage of men?

3 posted on 02/03/2003 6:23:07 PM PST by Voltage
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To: softengine
The hard reality is this. There is no guarantee any person will marry in their lifetime, male or female. It behooves any woman to get an education and a good job which will pay the rent and put food on the table in the event Mr. Right does not come along. There are no discounts or freebies for single women waiting for husbands. There is no fund to support them until marriage occurs.

Years ago people married to survive in the world. Times have changed and so have people's ideas about marriage. If one's priority is love and compatibility there is no control over when and how that will occur no matter how nice a person is. I know plenty of nice people both male and female who are still single and looking.

4 posted on 02/03/2003 6:26:43 PM PST by Scupoli
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To: softengine
Damn betcha. The homely gal with the big smile, two snot-nosed kids hanging on, and a contented husband is far, far happier than J-Lo ever will be!

5 posted on 02/03/2003 6:32:50 PM PST by lawdude
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To: softengine
My advice is always this... involve yourself with something outside of work that you care about. Anyone you meet there, in the course of this, is already self-selected as someone who cares about the same things you do.

And if you never meet the one you're looking for, still, your life will have meant something, having been devoted to something you care about.

And never settle, where character is concerned. Nobody is ever going to fulfill anyone else's perfect list of requirements, most of the things we say we want won't matter when the right one comes along. But character always matters. What drives him, what makes him mad, what frightens him, how does he handle fear and anger, what besides himself does he live for. Who is he when there is no one there to see.
6 posted on 02/03/2003 6:34:13 PM PST by marron
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To: softengine
Softengine wrote:

"He makes many good points but fails to mention those of us 30-something women with successfull careers, financial stability, education, better than decent looks, and no guy to snuggle (or other) with on a cold night.

I'm not steeped in feminism. I listen to it with disdain, hearing it daily as I do from my much younger coworkers. But they have dates come Friday. They may screw up those dates with their none too subtle Gandylike views, but they do have dates."

WHAT!!!! You're a successful smart woman, and you treat feminism with disdain? You're a woman and you dare to go against political correctness?

As a single successful educated reasonably good looking 36 year-old man, let me just say that I find it very sad....

That we live two thousand miles apart. Dang.

:)
9 posted on 02/03/2003 6:36:29 PM PST by Our man in washington
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To: softengine
I think this article does make some very goods points however I also wonder with you when you say

Could it be that they ARE afraid of those with more than two brain cells to rub together?

I am what was commonly referred to as a "spit-fire" personality. Maureen O'Hara type not finding any John Waynes'.
When I look around I see a lot of men do go for the demure Tupperware party-type
(don't misunderstand, nothing wrong with demure or Tupperware)

10 posted on 02/03/2003 6:37:36 PM PST by apackof2
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To: softengine
10. Limit yourself to five complaints and demands a day.

This is far and away the funniest thing I've read in a while.

Personally, I'd settle for five AN HOUR.

Now, I have to get off the computer before the Mrs. sees this. :)

11 posted on 02/03/2003 6:38:28 PM PST by NativeNewYorker (Freepin' Jew Boy)
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To: softengine
OK, putting on my flame-retardent suit, preparing to respond...

OK....

Ready... ;-)

For starters, whether or not you tend to believe in idealistic feminism, there are some severe contradictions in contemporary society, that are taught to women.

Consider, that women are taught that they can be CEO of a Fortune-500 company, a fighter-jock, as much (if not more) of a man, then men are... That women and men are exactly the same, with no differences (show me a man that can give birth to a child, and I'll call him a woman ;-)), etc... In short, women are generally taught that they can be ALL these things, involving personal power... and yet, be vulnerable and dependant on someone else, when it comes to a relationship... These contradictions of message put Western women (generally speaking, here) in quite a bind. And... supposing, for the sake of argument, that a woman can be all these things, and have children and a home- when would she sleep?

Southern belles, as the author pointed out, easily get the things they want- not by trying to be more of a man then men are, but by capitalizing on their feminity, the one thing that men simply can't battle...

Men are simplistic, linear-thinking creatures, for the most part. We compete with each other on a physical level- which women can't realistically compete on... We compete aggressively, even beating the living hell out of each other, to be at the top of the pecking-order... But when the man comes home at night, a lady, with the right smile and a sweet tone to her voice, asks him to do something...? And he meekly says, "ok, honey..." LOL... All the masculine prowess in the world is pathetic, next to the weapons that a wise woman has at her disposal...

Class, femininity, charm... These things can overpower a man, far more efficiently than anything else.

An old Russian expression, "the man is at the wheel of the ship, the woman holds it in her palm." Something to think about...

After having travelled extensively outside the sphere of "western" influence...? I know that I will never get re-married to a woman from the USA, or probably any other western country... Too crass, too crude. Too arrogant and blatantly selfish...

And, while there are certainly nice, good-hearted women to be found here in the USA...? There are far more women with enough emotional baggage (sufficient to choke American Airlines) than not... I'll go where the odds are a lot better...

Because I can... And I will... Considering that 1/3 of all legal immigration to this country (according to the latest INS reports) are foreign spouses of American citizens, it seems logical that I'm not the only American man who has come to this conclusion...

Good luck, on finding your Mr. Right... ;-))) They're out there... but there aren't that many, by my observations... :-\

13 posted on 02/03/2003 6:42:08 PM PST by Capitalist Eric
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To: softengine
The article made some sense. A wise person once said that America's enemies will never have to lift a finger because Americans will find a way to defeat themselves. The was even before the idea of ZPG (ZERO POPULATION GROWTH) came along. America will collapse because American's believe they have transcended the laws of nature and can think and/or wish their way into the perfect world.
14 posted on 02/03/2003 6:43:33 PM PST by David Isaac
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To: softengine
He left out the one my mother taught me -- why buy the cow if you can milk it through the fence.
18 posted on 02/03/2003 6:51:06 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: softengine
Their Excuse!


21 posted on 02/03/2003 6:52:21 PM PST by stlrocket
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To: softengine
BARF.

Don't go to college (or burn up your degree) and quit your damned job and sell your house if you're so damned unhappy. Then sit around and wait for the marriage offers to roll in. Geez.

I'm so sick of this whining. Did Whitehead et al ever stop to think that these women wouldn't be any happier or any less clueless no matter what?
22 posted on 02/03/2003 6:54:44 PM PST by Lorianne
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To: softengine
...the root of the problem is that the kind of man she wants is precisely the man who is smart enough to stay away from her.

Reduced to its lowest common denominator, it's the root of her problem. My life improved dramatically once I realized that a life partner who did not share the same deeply held values and convictions as I did would be nothing more than a millstone around my neck. If you live your life with a purpose, if you live a self-examined life, if you choose to live a non-contradictory life - then nothing less will do. My wife and I differ in many respects, our interests vary; we are each unique individuals. We do not differ at all in terms of our purpose in life. More to the point, my wife is someone with whom I can trust my life. I could toss her a rifle and say, "cover my back," - and she would do so without hesitation. Actually, I wouldn't have to toss her a rifle - she's got one of her own. But you get the idea. We've worked together, we've trained together and we trust one another implicitly - especially when it comes to matters of life and death.

For thos who claim that politcs don't matter between partners, I say bullshit. An individual's political views are a direct product of their values. Hell, a person's entire being - from their smallest gesture to their greatest ambitions - is an expression of their values. One would have to be a willfully ignorant fool or one would have to have made peace with fact that they are living a life of shrieking fraud to believe otherwise. Why on this Earth would somone want to live with one whose values were contradictory?

The kind of outlook my wife and I share is unthinkable to the type of professional woman of whom the article speaks. God forbid that this sort of woman would ever have to deal with anything as serious as life and death. At the rate things are going, though, she will not have a choice.

23 posted on 02/03/2003 6:55:12 PM PST by Noumenon
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To: softengine
But, as I told my friend, the root of the problem is that the kind of man she wants is precisely the man who is smart enough to stay away from her.

Ouch!

24 posted on 02/03/2003 6:56:35 PM PST by StriperSniper (Start heating the TAR, I'll go get the FEATHERS.)
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To: softengine; shaggy eel
I posted this on an earlier thread about this particular book, so I thought I'd post it again...

Let me just give the female side of this. It truly does suck to be single. And when you're in that 30-34 age range, it gets even worse. All your friends are married, having kids, and experiencing parts of life that you have no clue about. Sure, they envy you for being single, being independent, being free. But when it all comes down to it, who goes home to an empty bed?

I don't necessarily agree with the author on her choice of an example single woman. I can only tell you what I know. What I was taught, what I believe...

I was raised to believe that I could do anything, that I could be anything I wanted. Keep in mind that these words of freedom were given by a mother who survived two abusive marriages and four children- one of which she never knew because she gave it up for adoption. Because compared to her, those very words themselves inspired achievement and the longing for something better.

So now, I'm 33- almost 34. And for all those uplifting words rooted in feminist beliefs, I have become everything that I wanted. But do I want everything that I've become? For in that quest to be anything, I really lost who I was, and what I really wanted.

Sure, I'd scoff and mock those I knew back in my 20s who were getting married, having kids, living the life of suburbia- because I was free. I could do anything I wanted. I could pick up and go away for the weekend at a moments notice. And those pathetic conformer friends of mine had to sit back and watch the kids.

But now, who's laughing?

It isn't so much that I feel I've missed out on a lot for my own ambition. I already know that to be true. And yeah, I even fell into the popular feminist rant that 'oh guys today are scared off by successful, assertive women'. But probably the most startling casualty of exalted single life is how I define love.

You see, I still get a pang of disbelief when friends tell me the reasons why they got married, or describe the kind of love they have for their husbands. It's as though loving half or three quarters of complete and full love is enough. Heck, it sure is better than nothing.

But is it really? If I had a dime for every time one of my girlfriends said if they had to do it over, they’d do it entirely different, yada yada yada, I wouldn’t need a man because I’d be rich enough to buy one.

I've always felt that love and being in love is giving all of yourself and still retaining a sense of who you are. Love is all-consuming and something done with the entire body, mind, heart and soul- not something done half-ass, part of some desperate attempt to attach to something, anything, as long as it means not being alone, or even doing what is expected of you like the preverbal 'logical next step'. It becomes a struggle between compromising my beliefs on what I think love is and should be, or living alone in a small farm house as an old maid with 24 cats and a purse that smells like Juicy Fruit.

So, gentleman, is it better to love a little, with only a small flame than to not experience the fire at all?

This is my struggle, as a single 30 something gal.

27 posted on 02/03/2003 6:59:20 PM PST by rintense (Go Get 'Em Dubya!)
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To: softengine
This isn't your fault, but I'm suprised nobody spotted this:

1. Your rights are delineated in the Constitution. Everything else is a privilege.

This is just WRONG, my man! :P

29 posted on 02/03/2003 7:00:13 PM PST by Constantine XIII
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To: softengine
There's almost nothing wrong with a person a tour in the Navy won't fix.
34 posted on 02/03/2003 7:06:47 PM PST by pabianice
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To: softengine
I am NOT a femi-nazi!

But I am now 30 and unmarried.

I do believe that I should NOT have to settle with someone who is not an intellectual match of mine.

If I did. I would be doing that person a disservice, because I KNOW I would divorce them.


I gravitate to people who are smarter than me...be cause I have this all-consuming need to LEARN. ALL the time, I want to find out stuff.

I couldn't marry an eejit for THAT reason. I'd out grow them. And then I'd have to divorce them.

43 posted on 02/03/2003 7:22:33 PM PST by Happygal
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To: softengine
I thought I'd share my opinion on this matter.

I think that attitude is much more of a deciding factor in all of this than actual intelligence. The two basic types of women that we're talking about here are the career-minded types and the nanny, tupperware-party types. The career-minded ones tend to be more driven (because they have to be) regardless of how intelligent they actually are, while the others tend to be a bit more demure.

Well, as a guy who has dated the career-minded ones almost exclusively BECAUSE of their brains, I can tell you that a couple of years having to argue about every little damn detail starts to make the nanny/tupperware-party types look pretty freaking attractive. What I think it boils down to is that one of us has to be the woman once in a while, and it's not going to be me. I think most guys with any testosterone in their blood would feel that way too, at least now and then. Of course, there are always the new age, sensitive members of the pansy brigade out there, if you're into that kind of thing.

Good luck.
44 posted on 02/03/2003 7:23:26 PM PST by fr_freak
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