Church's sign has Muslims outraged -''Jesus Forbade Murder. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

accessatlanta. ^

[chance33_98]

Church's sign has Muslims outraged

Florida pastor says criticism of Islam is legal and fair

Associated Press Friday, January 17, 2003

Jacksonville --- The Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida is calling on state religious leaders to repudiate a Jacksonville Baptist church's roadside sign the group claims is anti-Muslim.

The sign outside the First Conservative Baptist Church in Jacksonville's Mandarin area reads: ''Jesus Forbade Murder. Matthew 26:52. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

Altaf Ali, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida, said his organization attempted to talk with the Baptist church's officials about the sign, but were rebuffed with belligerent language.

''All Americans must band together to condemn hate speech designed to divide our nation along religious and ethnic lines,'' Ali said. ''Any attempt to marginalize or vilify one religious community is an attack on all people of faith.''

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gene Youngblood, who also leads the Conservative Theological Society and Conservative Christian Academy, said he has been using the marquee-type sign to express the church's opinion for 15 years and has no plans to remove the message.

''First and foremost, are we not entitled to freedom of speech?'' Youngblood said.

Youngblood, who said he is an expert on world religions, said he had been threatened and his property vandalized. He said he has filed 13 police reports since July.

Youngblood said his church would issue a formal statement later.

Iman Zaid Malik, spiritual leader of the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida, said some Christian friends brought the offensive sign to his attention.

''Misinformation must be rejected by all people of conscience,'' Malik said. ''This shows that the vast majority of Americans reject hate and seek a society where good overcomes the evil.''

Malik said the Quran verse indicates that those who believe and are steadfast in battle will overcome much larger armies. It is not an endorsement of murder, he said.

The verse reads: ''O Prophet [Muhammad]! Inspire the believers to conquer all fear of death when fighting, [so that] if there be twenty of you who are patient in adversity, they might overcome two hundred; and if there be one hundred of you, they might overcome one-thousand of those bent on denying the truth, because they are people who cannot grasp it.''

The Council on American-Islamic Relations said the Quran also states, ''whoever murders a person . . . it will be as if he killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life, shall be regarded as if he saved all mankind.''

ON THE WEB: Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida: www.cair-florida.org

First Conservative Baptist Church: www.conservative.edu/main.htm

[Stingray]

"Or does the right to publically ridicule a religon only apply to Christians?"

Why buy space on billboards when they can buy seats on airliners and fly us into tall buildings with them?

Or hijack ships and kill old Jewish men. Or tie bombs to their young men and women and send them into public places to blow themselves and innocent bystanders up?

You're not thinking big enough to even begin to comprehend the enemy or what's at stake here.

Wake up.

[freebilly]

There are counties where no alcohol can be sold, there are counties where no alcohol can be sold on Sundays, and there are counties where no alcohol can be sold on Sunday mornings.

And there are countries, under Islamic law, where those who are intoxicated can be put to death.

So far as I know, no one in America, lately, has been executed for having had one too many Hamm's....

[Hodar]

You're not thinking big enough to even begin to comprehend the enemy or what's at stake here.

No, I think you have that wrong. Our enemy is Wahabism and a represive culture; not every Muslum in the world. Have you noticed that every Muslum country, is a dictatorship and subjugated country? People get only the 'approved' news, which tends to run fairly negative against the US. Then we wonder why they hate us. Then Clinton bombs a KNOWN asperin factory, and gives them a reason to hate us even more.

There are several excellent articles spelling out why they hate us. We are successful, they are primitive; if it weren't the accident of enormous mineral wealth, they would be nothing. They also know that without us, they can't even retrieve their wealth. They are jealous, we have succeeded where they can't even sustain the technology levels we have given them. We need to change their culture, and win their hearts and minds. This takes time.

However, others want to declare a war on every single Muslum in the world. That is foolish, as not only is it counter to the Counstitution, it puts all other religons against Christians. Assuming we take out the Muslims, who's next? Buddist? Hindu?

[freebilly]

Save your breath, Stingray, people like Hodar expect the average Christian to let his house get burned down, his wife get raped, and his children get murdered without raising a hand in protest....

[FreedomCalls]

I believe that requires me to respect the fact that people can worship how they choose.

So you would have no problems with an Aztec priest cutting out the heart of a living virgin to appease the sun god, lest the sun not rise tomorrow? You are not faced with this choice today because good Christian men saw it for what it was -- as evil, and they destroyed it.

From the Friday November 1st 2002 sermon of Sheikh Yousef Al-Qardhawi:

"Allah, bring us the victory over your enemies, the enemies of Islam. Allah, remove their trap from us, weaken them, eradicate their countries and banish their regimes from your land. Do not let them reach any of your believers. Allah, deal with the aggressive and treacherous Jews. Allah, deal with the aggressive Americans. Allah, deal with the extremist pagans. Allah, deal with the oppressing Crusaders."

From The Saudi Sheikh Muhammad bin Abd Al-Rahman Al-'Arifi, imam of the mosque of King Fahd Defense Academy:

"… We will control the land of the Vatican; we will control Rome and introduce Islam in it. Yes, the Christians, who carve crosses on the breasts of the Muslims in Kosovo - and before then in Bosnia, and before then in many places in the world - will yet pay us the Jiziya [poll tax paid by non-Muslims under Muslim rule], in humiliation, or they will convert to Islam…"

[freebilly]

Our enemy is Wahabism and a represive culture; not every Muslum in the world. Have you noticed that every Muslum country, is a dictatorship and subjugated country?

Hmmm..., seems fairly obvious that something in Islam hates freedom and seeks to dominate, control, and repress.

[FreedomCalls]

Does your faith dis-avow the OT?

Does Islam disavow the New Testament?

[SpringheelJack]

So Christians put as much faith in the Old Testament as Islam does in the New Testament. It's something that came earlier and recognized as holy, but is not central to the faith

I think that's an exaggeration. Muslims do consider Moses and Jesus, etc., to have been genuine prophets; however they regard the Bible as a corrupted and interpolated account of their preachings, one that is untrustworthy and full of contradictions. Muslims say that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God, for instance. The Koran, on the other hand, they view as handed down directly from God, and therefore infallible. So to say that Muslims put "as much faith" in the New Testament as Christians do to the Old Testament is quite inaccurate.

[SpringheelJack]

Hmmm..., seems fairly obvious that something in Islam hates freedom and seeks to dominate, control, and repress.

That's the story of humanity - the lust to control, dominate, and repress.

[Stingray]

"Assuming we take out the Muslims, who's next? Buddist? Hindu?"

Assuming they don't attack our country, kill our people en masse or destroy our property, then I don't see any reason to go after them, do you?

The argument of "moral equivalence" among all religions you're pushing here is intellectually, morally, and logically bankrupt. Give it up and spare whatever shred of diginity or decency you have left.

[Just mythoughts]

Fortunately, we live in a country where we have laws that prevent sacrifices, however our inner cities sure seem like killing fields. If a person commits a crime then there should be swift judgement. I don't agree with their religion so why would I want to act like some of their radicals do. We allowed in office people who have allowed these things to happen.

It was the American people who invited different people and religions in and just how many Christian stood up and against the ever so popular previous president, who made a mockery of this country and the Word. I recall some famous Reverends looking the other way, not just one or two but many and doing so publicly.

Why did Christians in America allow a pervert to be their president not once but twice, and now after damage is done refuse to see that they allowed perversion among their midst. This country seems to have basic problems it likes to over look. Honest elections, honest politicians and honest men of God. Unless and until a person is in the act of planning a crime, just because of his/or her religion is not cause enough to destroy he or she.

Seems to me that had this country has enough Christians to call on the carpet for their own sins. I thought this discussion was what Christians should do, not what is government responsibility, oh, but of course Christians allow what goverment we get and why isn't there wrath against those who have allowed these problems to come here.

So just what is your answer? What would you do?

[syriacus]

Our enemy is Wahabism and a represive culture; not every Muslum in the world

You could be right about this.

How do, we get in touch with the folks you said are our enemies-- the followers of Wahhabism?

Do we tap all Muslims on the shoulder and ask if they are followers of Wahhabism (or know folks who are)? Do we have them sign papers declaring their religious beliefs?

[Jmouse007]

You Stated: "by their FRUITS you shall know them."

"Does He then know us by the millions of discarded fetuses, and the thousands of children raped by our clergy?"

The Answer to your question is absolutely, the principle: "by their FRUITS you shall know them" is consistent. However, the focus of the original post was the teachings of Christ versus the teachings of Mohammed.

Christ taught His followers to LOVE their neighbors, to LOVE their enemies, to LOVE those who did not believe in Him and to LOVE one another. He NEVER taught his followers to KILL those who did not or would not believe in Him. Neither are these thigs taught in andy of the New Testament epistles.

On the other hand, Mohammed not only consistently taught his followers to KILL those who did not or would not believe in "allah" or "Mohammed his prophet". He gave his followers a bloody example to follow by killing "unbelievers" with his own hands! That is the reason, throughout history, Islam has been noted as the religion of the sword (not "peace" TM). Interestingly, Christianity is noted by the Cross-; denoting Christ's sacrifice out of God's LOVE for the entire world (John 3:16).

[syriacus]

So you would have no problems with an Aztec priest cutting out the heart of a living virgin to appease the sun god, lest the sun not rise tomorrow?

This brings to mind the joking comment by Clinton that he would have asked for a date with the good-looking mummy of a sacrificed maiden, if he weren't a married man.

Juanita met President Clinton. In 1996 she visited the United States where she met President Clinton at a dinner in Stamford, Connecticut. He reportedly said, "If I were a single man, I might ask that mummy out. That's a good-looking mummy!" According to the Associated Press, Peruvian scientists at the time called his remark "tasteless."

[DaGman]

Seems to me Moses walked down from the mountain with at least 10 items that are probibited including murder. Moses predated both Mohammed and Christ. I'm no Koran expert, but are the 10 commandments in the Koran? I suspect there's likely similar wording, if not all the commandments.

And, there are plenty of references to "approved murder" in the Old Testament, so the reverse could be just as easily advocated by Islamists. Another thing, I'm no Bible expert either, but I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament where Christ explcitly said murder was prohibited although, granted, Jesus was all about peace.

Seems to me the message was put up on the sign for no other reason than it was a feel good thing for this pastor. The "belligerent language", IMHO, confirms this.

[aruanan]

The Council on American-Islamic Relations said the Quran also states, ''whoever murders a person . . . it will be as if he killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life, shall be regarded as if he saved all mankind.''

Gee, imagine that. The CAIR quoting the Koran out of context. I wonder why they'd do that! If the killer is non-Muslim and the victim Muslim, then the killing is considered an attack on Islam. If the killer is Muslim and the victim non-Muslim, then, whatever it is, the act is not murder. You have to be a Muslim killed by a Muslim in order to be murdered.

[Rightly Biased]

That's because most people's faith resides in their heads, where it can be attacked and possibly won over with persuasive arguments, instead of in their hearts where it can never be conquered and for which one is ready to die for

"you have seen with your eyes now believe with your heart also"
If you belive it truly believe it you will truly die for it, "the old story of men with guns telling you to deny Christ or die" etal...

Regards RB<><

[aruanan]

That's how I'm reading the verse given the manner in which it's reported in the article.

That's nice. Grab yourself a Koran (Penguin Classics has one that's reputable) and read enough to know that the verse they selected was a fairly innocuous one considering what they could have referred to.

[Morrigan]

I understand what you're saying, believe me. I don't agree with making war or killing all Muslims. I would rather see their culture change, evolve, and leave this crap behind. But, at some point in time, we come to the realization that they are not going to do this.

While many people do not want to make war on "all" Muslims, it may very well come to that. It isn't the fault of any of us, or of the administration. It is Islam's fault. It is the fault of Muslims, and Islamic culture. There is going to be a problem because they are determined to MAKE one. I don't think that their minds or hearts can be changed. Hate has been ingrained in them since they were born. How do you undo a lifetime of brainwashing?

I don't think it is possible. For that reason, I expect Islam to eventually commit economic and social suicide. I don't think it will need any help from us.

[freebilly]

That's the story of humanity - the lust to control, dominate, and repress.

That's correct, and I notice in most parts of the world Christians are being the ones to do most of the controlling, dominating, and repressing.

Why, here in the US, 19 Christians even flew a couple of jets into the WTC. Christians are leading insurgent armies around the world, strapping bombs to themselves and killing Jews, murdering Russians in Checnya, assassinating missionaries in Pakistan and the Philippines, selling people into slavery in Sudan, bombing night clubs full of Aussies in Bali, threatening to nuke India, and plotting to release Ricin somewhere in the UK.< /sarcasm >

According to my understanding of Christian scripture, this world has been given over to Satan. Christians know that the Kingdom of Heaven is not earned by praying five times a day or by blowing yourself up to prove how "holy" you are.

The message of Christ is that salvation is a gift, paid for with the blood of Christ, freely given to all, and all are free to accept or reject this message. All those who seek to control, dominate, and repress are doing Satan's work.

One religion seems to encourage murder and violence. One explicitly condemns it.

I wonder which religion is performing Satan's will on earth...?