Dec 12th Report from UN Tribunal - Milosevic vs. Humna Rights Watch

jurist.com ^ | Dec 12, 2002 | Vera Martinovic

[Balto_Boy]

Yes, I know it's about Slobo's crimes such as Srebrenica, Trepca, instigating the Kosovo war in 1989, etc.

[branicap]

As usual,you,dear Sir,never discuss the article,you just spill your insults and verbal filth on other people!Once,you have described yourself as an impartial,objective observer....LOOOOOOOOL.Vera Martinovich,just like many other jurists that take part in Jurist web site are quoting events and what was said verbatim!But,for you,they are all Milosevic`s usefull idiots???Care to offer your analisys of the HW report?A woman`s ignorrance of people she was talking to,for instance?Kostunica member of Yu Foreign Office???

I think that you,Hoplite,had been someones usefull idiot on FR for to long...Your latest posts show that you`re now just an idiot in your own right!

Good for you!Go and find a job in some NGO for Yugoslavia,you`re fully qualified!

[Hoplite]

As it was handled by his lieutentants, there's no direct link between Adolph and his atrocities - but you know what we think of idiots who would attempt to absolve him of his sins, don't you Balto.

Same same with Milosevic. Save your crap for someone else.

[Hoplite]

Vera writes for Slobodan-Milosevic.org, is posting in the letters section of the Jurist, rather than being a contributing author to that site, and has nothing substantiative to contribute to the discussion but instead starts off her piece by attacking someone who does have something to contribute to the discussion, i.e., Jeri Laber.

So there's not much to discuss, is there? This is just the literal equivalent of what I'd expect to hear from the SPS's sewing circle and is the equivalent of the not very bright attempting to mislead the even less intellectually endowed - you mistake this one sided catfight, replete with all the moronic denials and claims to victimhood that make Serb Nationalist thought the laughing stock it is for something with merit, and that says something serious about you, Branicap.

Here, just to get your goat, I'll paraphrase Dan Akroyd: "Vera, you ignorant slut..."

Defend the indefensible, Branicap - all you'll get from me is the contempt you deserve.

[bluester]

The three wicked witches of Belgrade are Biljana Kovacevic-Vuco (Yugoslav Committee of Human Rights Lawyers), Natasa Kandic (Humanitarian Law Centre) and Sonja Biserko (Serbian Helsinki Committee for Human Rights).

Now that's the most comfortable way of discrediting all three organisations, isn't it? By calling their representatives (or heads) witches. When they talked about the war crimes against Serbs or in other cases, I am sure Mrs Vera didn't have a problem.

Let me put it this way Vooch, if the Helsinki Monitor in Slovenia did a report of human rights abuse of Romas or other minorities and the government or some defending them said it is not true and that they are only some witches with anti-Slovenian stance, even though they are Slovenians themselves, who would I trust more (this is not only a hypothetical question)? The NGO or the government? If your answer is the goverment, you are wrong. Some of those NGO's have a good track (all around the world) of exposing human rights abuse, war crimes, police brutality, discrimination etc.. In many cases when even the (major) media doesn't report them, they're one of the few that do. The guilty conscience of each country.

I am sure many people (even some jurists) don't like the things they say. And they wish they would simply dissapear. Don't tell me there is an NGO conspiracy going on and that every single human rights organisation is simply making things up just for the fun of it to make their country look bad. Blaming (demonizing) the messanger, ignoring the message. Don't you find a problem here?

[Balto_Boy]

As it was handled by his lieutentants, there's no direct link between Adolph and his atrocities - but you know what we think of idiots who would attempt to absolve him of his sins, don't you Balto. Same same with Milosevic.

There is a big difference, in that Hitler's lieutenants were acting on his direct orders. Not the same with Slobo, according to the Hague's investigators. BTW, I notice you don't apply your Hitler analogy to Bin Laden and the KLA.

[Hoplite]

Big difference?

Hitler and Babi Yar as related by these idiots
vs
Milosevic and Srebrenica as related by you.

Quite frankly, there's not much to choose from by way of differences - insulting, isn't it?

I don't apply the analogy to Bin Laden and the KLA because that's simply stupid.

[Balto_Boy]

Hitler and Babi Yar as related by these idiots vs Milosevic and Srebrenica as related by you. Quite frankly, there's not much to choose from by way of differences...

How does any of this PROVE that Milo ordered or otherwise had any cntrol over the massacre at Srebrenica? And why did this proof escape the Hague's investigators? Or Clinton in 1996?

...insulting, isn't it?

It might be to Clinton and the Hague's investigators, but I won't say I know the Guarantor was innocent. I just don't believe it solely on NATO's say so.

I don't apply the analogy to Bin Laden and the KLA because that's simply stupid.

Why?

[Hoplite]

Hitler's lieutenants were acting on his direct orders.
False.

Hitler did, however, provide an environment devoid of legal repercussions and geared by propaganda towards results like Babi Yar, and those results would not have been possible without Hitler - he didn't order, much less know about the massacre on September 3rd, 1939 of some 55 Polish peasants in the village of Truskolasy, but he is nevertheless ultimately responsible.

Same same with Milosevic and Srebrenica - he doesn't have to have been there, he doesn't have to have ordered it: Setting the Bosnian Serbs in motion back in 1992 while fully knowing their methods and supplying them with men and supplies throughout is enough. No Slobo, no Srebrenica. It wasn't Karadzic at Dayton, it was Slobo, for he, not anyone else, provided Mladic and Karadzic with what they needed to cleanse the RSK of the Serb's version of untermenschen.

Ultimately, yours is a straw man argument. Consider it knocked down, with the ultimate responsibility for Srebrenica and the uncounted smaller massacres in Bosnia still resting at Slobo's feet.

Let's confine ourselves to this one issue before delving into your Bin Laden fantasies, shall we? I've already thrashed Destro numerous times on the matter, and it's quite a bore by now.

[wonders]

Methinks someone has RSK confused with RS.

And you may go here to find this: "There are a number of indications that it was a central command from the General Staff of the VRS. There are none pointing to political or military liaison with Belgrado."

[smokegenerator]

You flagrantly disregard the fact Karadzic and Mladic would have been arrested and you know it. The only reason Slobo was invited is they knew he would sell the RS out to lift the sanctions. That explains the fact Krajisnik had zero say in any decision Slobo came to, on behalf of the Serbs. You ever hear of the incident between Krajisnik and Holbrooke that occurred in the far room?

Karadzic had no choice but to accept Slobo on his behalf. During the Dayton talks, Momcilo was on the wanted list but delayed for a number of years til they had fabricated lies to arrest him without question. You fail to grasp, as always, the fact behind closed doors in regards to the Serbs.

All you and your pet, Destro has, are little links to "verify" your cloutless "proof". The disbelieving truth can not be found on these links provided by these "so-called reporters" Christianne "Minnie Mouse saves Sarajevo" Amanpour (marriage to Clinton PR spokesperson), your Sudetic friend (Croat who abhors the Serbs), Wm Safire, Martin Sugarman (I have a tape recording when he was "invited" to so-called speak at a Muslim Student Organization open forum. Open only to his views, as he shut me out of any further questions when I challenged his "proof" with my own visual proof to discredit and embarress his ass on public stage. Boy!!! You should have seen his eyes widen right up when I told him where I just returned from 72 hours previously. HEHEHE. "I cant talk with you, you are out of control" word for word. How so? I jotted down each of is lies on paper and began the process of correcting him with some visual fact and some limited eyewitness account and first-hand accounts from a few credible Serbs. Total humiliation of him as you humuliate yourself on this worldwide forum.

Prior to your providing links, know what the heck you are talking about. Prijedor, geesh, you have no idea what happened there, do you? What about Petrinje and/or Glina, boyo? Tell me what happened there? Better yet, lets go round and round with Srebrinca and Gorazde, lets do? Hoplite, you are just a whiny man who needs to resurrect your own self-ego by laying putdowns on others.

[smokegenerator]

re post 31... I called his Sugarmans bluffing lies when I brought up his Sarajevan lies. I "offered" to show and put up on display photos of proof that the Muslims were honest to goodness, placing heavy weapons inside hospitals, cemetaries, etc... Though, I did not have those photoes on me, he became very upset. That is when he said I was out of control. Funny thing is with me, wonder, I look and sound at times like an egomaniacal imbeciile, innocent and impressionable "young upstanding man"... HA! Piss me off and yeah buddy!...:) That is what Sugarman did, so I called his bluff. Luckily, I did happen to have photos in the manila folder I brought...:) You see, when the opposition is lying and when confronted, they name call you in every attempt to discredit you. Hence what Hoplite does.

[kosta50]

Interesting "flare ups." Vera writes like a lawyer-prosecutor. No need to get all worked up about it. Prosecutors exaggerate, defense lawyers minimize.

None of these issues will be solved on this Forum.

This Forum should be a source of information, links and references.

It should be a source of free opinion.

I seriously doubt that anyone will change anyone else's mind with "brilliant" arguments.

Nations, like people, tend to stay put. Croatians are in love with their fascist past, Serbs feel victimized, Americans feel they need to save the world, and so on.

Winning sides are never in the wrong; losing sides are always in the wrong. That's the way it was, is and will be. It's human nature: I call it the Divine Ego complex, the ego Freud left out. Twenty years from now, this will be old and forgotten, the way Carter-Reagan TV debate is. Some of you were still in diapers when it happend. But way back then it was real and newsworthy.

No amount of argument will change the outocme of ICTY's verdict. Miloshevich was condmened before his trial. The trial is done to humiliate and it is doing a good job.

Radicalizing Serbs even further is not a good formula for the future. Collaborationist scum like Djindjich & Company will not prevail in a state of national insult. Buying peace did not work in the Middle East. It won't work in the Balkans.

Rather it's time for damage control, but none is forthcoming. The Impirial Hydra has no foresight. Merchants never do. It strikes without thinking. So far, the Hydra was good at destroying, and usurping, but has not solved one single problem it set out to solve. Remember that.

[Balto_Boy]

False. Hitler did, however, provide an environment devoid of legal repercussions and geared by propaganda towards results like Babi Yar, and those results would not have been possible without Hitler - he didn't order, much less know about the massacre on September 3rd, 1939 of some 55 Polish peasants in the village of Truskolasy, but he is nevertheless ultimately responsible.

With all due respect, you're dead wrong. Hitler ORDERED his troops to wage a brutal campaign against the Russians, and he wasn't disobeyed. That he didn't order or know about this one massacre doesn't mean they weren't following his DIRECT orders.

Same same with Milosevic and Srebrenica - he doesn't have to have been there, he doesn't have to have ordered it: Setting the Bosnian Serbs in motion back in 1992 while fully knowing their methods and supplying them with men and supplies throughout is enough. It wasn't Karadzic at Dayton, it was Slobo, for he, not anyone else, provided Mladic and Karadzic with what they needed to cleanse the RSK of the Serb's version of untermenschen.

So why did this escape Clinton in 1996 and the Hague investigators now? You still haven't answered that.

Ultimately, yours is a straw man argument. Consider it knocked down, with the ultimate responsibility for Srebrenica and the uncounted smaller massacres in Bosnia still resting at Slobo's feet.

That is not my argument, nor am I actually making one one way or another. That was the conclusion of the Hague's investigators, and apparently of the Clinton administration in 1996. I have just posted what others said.

Let's confine ourselves to this one issue before delving into your Bin Laden fantasies, shall we?

Nope. If you have something to show that this and this are wrong, I want to see it.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Seems you are very desperate lately as you feel the need to come up with this childish 'Hitler same same Milosevic stuff'.

[Hoplite]

With all due respect, you're dead wrong. Hitler ORDERED his troops to wage a brutal campaign against the Russians, and he wasn't disobeyed. That he didn't order or know about this one massacre doesn't mean they weren't following his DIRECT orders.

You have removed the need to show a direct order from Hitler for the massacres perpetrated by his regime, and the ICTY is operating under the same rubric in regards to Milosevic. When those Polish villagers were killed, German forces had laws in place proscribing such acts - those laws simply weren't enforced under Hitler's regime and became meaningless. Same same with Slobo and laws against murdering non-Serbs in those parts of Yugoslavia outside of Serbia proper.

Note, Balto, that Arkan operated hand in glove with the Yugoslav Army and Security Services, which were under the control of Milosevic. The case is closed right there - Milosevic had both control and knowledge of the Tigers and all their crimes the same way Hitler exercised control and had knowledge of the crimes of his followers in Eastern Europe. Between Truskolasy and Bijeljina, there's not much to choose from, Balto_boy.

Milosevic was used to achieve an end in 1996, being the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords. Once that was done, you will note that he was treated like the pariah he deserved to be treated as - and he is charged by the ICTY with complicity in what happened in Bosnia, as a player in a "Joint Criminal Enterprise", just like he should be.

I want to see it.

Then you're just going to have to wait, aren't you?
One issue at a time, Balto.

[Hoplite]

Vera writes like a lawyer-prosecutor.

Vera writes like Vooch, Kosta. ; )

P.s., couldn't really make a decent stab at the Memorandum without having some background on the "genocide". Ergo, am reading up on the period. In short, still working on it, but with all things, results are reflective of the effort spent upon attaining them.

[Hoplite]

Seems

It's all a matter of perception, DEI.

[Balto_Boy]

You have removed the need to show a direct order from Hitler for the massacres perpetrated by his regime, and the ICTY is operating under the same rubric in regards to Milosevic....Note, Balto, that Arkan operated hand in glove with the Yugoslav Army and Security Services, which were under the control of Milosevic. The case is closed right there - Milosevic had both control and knowledge of the Tigers and all their crimes the same way Hitler exercised control and had knowledge of the crimes of his followers in Eastern Europe.

I knew that's what you were getting at. No, I haven't removed the need to demonstrate that a direct order was given with this example, because direct orders were given by Hitler. The investigators found no such link between Milo and Srebrenica, and CLEARED him based on this.

Milosevic was used to achieve an end in 1996, being the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords. Once that was done, you will note that he was treated like the pariah he deserved to be treated as...

Not so. He was still being dealt with as late as December, 1998 even after the Serbs showed their disfavor with his leadership in 1996, although you may be right about how he "deserved" to be treated.

Then you're just going to have to wait, aren't you?

Probably forever, but it's not something I'll lose sleep over.

[kosta50]

Vera writes like Vooch, Kosta. ;)

I find the little jabs on all sides quite unnecessary but utterly amusing. The good thing is: the information flow is two-way, and that's what counts.

On your post scrimptum, I think I will post the Memorandum for all to see in due time, if or when it comes up for discussion. It's another one of those often quoted issues everyone merely knows about.

It should be quite educational.

Happy Holidays to all...

_KOCTA