Dec 12th Report from UN Tribunal - Milosevic vs. Humna Rights Watch

Jeri Laber, the woman of the human rights, was this obnoxious combination of ignorance and arrogance which could be noticed in all these NGO warriors. One of our columnists coined a suitable name for them: anti-war profiteers (as opposed to simple, more honest, merely money-oriented war profiteers). This lot is downright dirty-handed and dirty-minded.

By penning their worthless 'reports', full of cheap politicking, ridiculous mistakes and vague generalizations, pretending they're defending the human rights of some abused people (without even deigning to put the facts right), they play into the hands of the governments who ordered these reports and at the same time they are not at all squeamish to accept the money. Our own type of such anti-war profiteers has one more layer to it: they are commissioned to quench even the last trace of any national feeling and pride within the tortured Serbian people. The three wicked witches of Belgrade are Biljana Kovacevic-Vuco (Yugoslav Committee of Human Rights Lawyers), Natasa Kandic (Humanitarian Law Centre) and Sonja Biserko (Serbian Helsinki Committee for Human Rights). They drafted (if not completely authored) the large chunks of the ICTY indictments, with a little help from Mesic.

They created the refrigerator truck news and dully disseminated/manipulated each anti-Serb slander there is. The last one named, Biserko, is among those 14 witnesses that the Prosecution had renounced in order to extend Babic. Good riddance! I'm physically unable to listen to the dribble of either one of them for more than 10 minutes at the time.

If you want to know more, to 'follow the money trail' and to see how the agenda, the ideology and the sources of funding are the same for the Human Rights Watch, the Institute for War & Peace Reporting, the International Crisis Group… and to follow the trail of the 'Human Rights Crowd' in the Balkans, read 3 highly informative articles by Gilles d'Aymery (http://www.swans.com/library/art7/ga109.html …/ga110.html …/ga111.html).

Well, if we were rid of Biserko by a lucky escape, we couldn't evade her more prominent Helsinki-Committee sister, Jeri Laber.

This one looks a bit more sophisticated than her Balkans counterparts, but her arrogance is that much greater. It was her downfall: she revealed her utter ignorance about the region and events in question and she didn't care one bit, concluding that she is 'here just to bring these 2 reports' (?!).

And these reports, one re human rights abuse in Kosovo and the other in Croatia, are so vague and generalized ('a certain small village', 'many people are believed to be executed'), full of material mistakes and plain stupidities ('KLA didn't exist then and I have been impressed how peaceful the Army of the Albanians was'), and above all highly politicised in each of its premises and conclusions ('the situation equal to apartheid and racism', 'HW appeals for the sanctions to be introduced against the Serbian Government').

In addition to anonymous informants, alleged victims of abuse, the bulk of material for the reports has been provided by talking to our 3 humanitarian Amazons and Mesic ('intellectuals, newspapermen, members of the Presidency')! The total number of the interviews for each report is about 30, Amazons & Mesic included. Truly a large, representative sample.

Of course, the Greater Serbia slander was amply used; when Nice asked how that came about, Laber answered 'this was in general use, in the Western press in any case'(?!). Even judge Robinson wanted to know whence the claim of JNA acting without authorization came. Laber said: "I cannot say what is this information based upon; perhaps they [HW staff] spoke with some members of the Presidency and draw such a conclusion."

After concocting such a precise, unbiased report, Jeri & staff would try to hand-deliver it to the culprits (in this case, Milosevic and General Adzic); when refused reception by them and instead received by lower-level officials, and later on answered in writing by the Chief of Cabinet, they regarded this as the sign that 'Serbia assumes full responsibility for all crimes in its territory'. This, together with both 'reports', was trumpeted all over media and sent to 'relevant Governments'.

To demonstrate objectivity, Laber presented supposedly similar report, handed over to Tudjman (this time in person), to which he replied he will 'investigate it'. Good show! But, one can take just one look at this other report prepared for Tudjman to see the sly doubletalk: this is the 'report on the human rights abuse by the Serbian local authorities and by Croatian individuals'. The Croatian Police and the National Guard Units are 'individuals', while JNA and Serbian Government are accused in toto .

Of course, other than this initial show no further development happened, no sanctions against CRO were asked/imposed. Nevertheless, Nice was thrilled, asking a rhetorical question: "Was this the sign of your trying to be unbiased?", and he quoted few sentences stating 'sufferings of the Serbs in the WW2', when 'thousands were killed'.

Jumping to and fro between the 2 reports, Nice made Laber talk profusely about the situation in Kosovo back in 1981, irritating May so much (history!!!) that he snapped even at Nice: "Such a detailed revisiting of the Kosovo history is not helping us at all in this moment." Nice sheepishly said: "We have always claimed that this all mutually fits together; this is a woman who visited all these regions before the wars."

So, the woman who makes all this to fit together, summed up all this by repeating that 'yes, they've denied all our accusations, but that letter signifies also their acceptance of responsibility'. Obviously, it is mortally dangerous to exchange any mail with these rabid NGOs, because that way you automatically recognize their importance.

After such a disgusting performance, Milosevic jumped with both feet on Laber; May tried his best to rescue her by interrupting 'We shall decide the admissibility of hearsay evidence", "This is irrelevant", "This is for us to decide".

After May prevented questioning the anonymity of informants, possibility to contact them and offer them protection of the ICTY to testify, the principle of direct procedure in any other court that the HW should defend and the separation of the right for self-determination from the human rights corpus, Milosevic then switched to the 'reports' and shredded them to pieces. Opening one of them at random, he quoted one sentence, describing one alleged human rights abuse. Then he asked: "Which village was that and which event?" Laber didn't know.

Milosevic quoted next sentence, describing alleged perpetrators, wearing 'yellow camouflage uniforms', and asked Laber whether she knew that there were no such uniforms in any ex-YU region, that these are the uniforms used in desert regions. Laber 'couldn't say what was the matter there'. Milosevic expressed his astonishment at such imprecise text, in collision with the 'highest professional standards' that her organization boasts of. Laber stated she did 'believe in the competence of people who made the report; didn't come here to defend the report paragraph by paragraph, but to bring the report.'

Milosevic proceeded by quoting from the statement, describing Laber's meeting in Belgrade (after she had been denied meeting with Milosevic and General Adzic) with 3 lower-level Army officers and '2 Foreign Affairs Ministry officials, Dr Micunovic and a certain Kostunica'.

He innocently asked her whether she was aware that Micunovic, current Speaker of the Federal Assembly, and Kostunica, current President of FRY, 'people who illegally delivered me here after they seized the power', were at that time two MPs from an opposition party, and not members of any Government. Laber showed contempt to these facts (why should she worry about some Balkan politicians, who was in what body and when, or whether her reports are precise or not?), saying it only matters what those people told her. Milosevic pointed out that this proves she was unable to understand such simple facts, which further indicates the other things were misunderstood as well; he then explained to this pigheaded lady that what they told her about Kosovo was exactly the same position she heard earlier from 3 Army representatives, as reported; was it not enough reason for her to believe it, when bitter political opponents stated the same?

Milosevic pressed on: "Was it not a logical mistake of yours, when you heard identical answer from those people as the answer you've got from the Army, to automatically lump them up in the Government?" For the first time, Laber let few moments to pass in silence. May panicked and jumped in: "No, no, this has nothing to do with this witness. You're now making your case here, and through this witness." Tapuskovic used the opportunity to further embarrass May, lingering at the unpleasant fact and getting back at him for all that snapping and barking; he stood up and supposedly 'clarified': "Your Honour, it has been a mistake, she thought that they were members of the Government, that they belong to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs."

May was sarcastic: "Yes, we know that. We shall not lose any more time." But Milosevic wouldn't let go: "Don't you think this is a rather cardinal mistake, which destroys a picture of your organization being exact and precise?" May prevented the answer: "Mrs Laber, if you don't want to answer, and it seems to me this is totally senseless…" She didn't answer, of course.

All the rest was further humiliation of the humanitarian madam, obviously very tough and cynical from handling Soros-type funding in exchange for opinion shaping. She answered in the shortest possible way, with staccato annunciation and acid remarks. Milosevic pointed out her falsely-objective and hypocritical remarks about the sufferings of the Serbs in the WW2 in CRO, when 'thousands were killed'; he sharply told her there were hundreds of thousands , and not thousands killed.

Laber said they 'want to avoid sensationalism and always use lower figures'. Talking about Holocaust denier!

Milosevic wanted to know was it not logical for the Serbs in CRO to remember those things after their constitutional status has been revoked. Laber was insolent: "I have not studied the Constitution; I believe your word at face value."

Milosevic: "You and your colleagues were supposed to read it, dealing with it in your reports. Your organization and yourself didn't know what was going on there."

Milosevic: "This was not the past, this was the present condition and the change happening at that moment."

To get an idea of the expert staff going to fact-finding missions, in addition to Laber herself, a Columbia-graduated expert in sovietology (?!) (when her staff was still petit, she was engaged personally; now they're 200 and she just jets around the world, being wined and dined, and occasionally testifies) there were two other gentlemen and a girl called Ivana Nizic, personally recruited by Laber right after she finished Columbia.

Laber gave her a training in research techniques (one week? three weeks?) and off she goes! This is her 'competent, experienced staff, trained not to ask suggestive questions, familiar with the countries in question'. Naturally, Miss Nizic acquired necessary experience along the way and became the investigator - guess where? Yes, ICTY!

Pure political premises and conclusions of the 'reports' were too much for Tapuskovic to bear, so he stood up at the very beginning, trying to point out that on a similar occasion, when one of the Court's investigators testified about Kosovo, all his conclusions were left out from his report and only 'facts' remained. But, it was useless, May admitted everything, mistakes, stupidities, slander, Western media as a source.

The 'reports' stated "Serb occupation of the parts of Croatian territory". When Milosevic quoted the US General Charles Boyd as saying that 'contrary to the popular media position, the Serbs lived there for centuries",

Laber just brought her reports, she was a courier and you don't argue the contents of the mail with a courier.

As usual,you,dear Sir,never discuss the article,you just spill your insults and verbal filth on other people!Once,you have described yourself as an impartial,objective observer....LOOOOOOOOL.Vera Martinovich,just like many other jurists that take part in Jurist web site are quoting events and what was said verbatim!But,for you,they are all Milosevic`s usefull idiots???Care to offer your analisys of the HW report?A woman`s ignorrance of people she was talking to,for instance?Kostunica member of Yu Foreign Office???

I think that you,Hoplite,had been someones usefull idiot on FR for to long...Your latest posts show that you`re now just an idiot in your own right!

Good for you!Go and find a job in some NGO for Yugoslavia,you`re fully qualified!

Vera writes for Slobodan-Milosevic.org, is posting in the letters section of the Jurist, rather than being a contributing author to that site, and has nothing substantiative to contribute to the discussion but instead starts off her piece by attacking someone who does have something to contribute to the discussion, i.e., Jeri Laber.

So there's not much to discuss, is there? This is just the literal equivalent of what I'd expect to hear from the SPS's sewing circle and is the equivalent of the not very bright attempting to mislead the even less intellectually endowed - you mistake this one sided catfight, replete with all the moronic denials and claims to victimhood that make Serb Nationalist thought the laughing stock it is for something with merit, and that says something serious about you, Branicap.

Here, just to get your goat, I'll paraphrase Dan Akroyd: "Vera, you ignorant slut..."

Defend the indefensible, Branicap - all you'll get from me is the contempt you deserve.

The three wicked witches of Belgrade are Biljana Kovacevic-Vuco (Yugoslav Committee of Human Rights Lawyers), Natasa Kandic (Humanitarian Law Centre) and Sonja Biserko (Serbian Helsinki Committee for Human Rights).

Now that's the most comfortable way of discrediting all three organisations, isn't it? By calling their representatives (or heads) witches. When they talked about the war crimes against Serbs or in other cases, I am sure Mrs Vera didn't have a problem.

Let me put it this way Vooch, if the Helsinki Monitor in Slovenia did a report of human rights abuse of Romas or other minorities and the government or some defending them said it is not true and that they are only some witches with anti-Slovenian stance, even though they are Slovenians themselves, who would I trust more (this is not only a hypothetical question)? The NGO or the government? If your answer is the goverment, you are wrong. Some of those NGO's have a good track (all around the world) of exposing human rights abuse, war crimes, police brutality, discrimination etc.. In many cases when even the (major) media doesn't report them, they're one of the few that do. The guilty conscience of each country.

I am sure many people (even some jurists) don't like the things they say. And they wish they would simply dissapear. Don't tell me there is an NGO conspiracy going on and that every single human rights organisation is simply making things up just for the fun of it to make their country look bad. Blaming (demonizing) the messanger, ignoring the message. Don't you find a problem here?

As it was handled by his lieutentants, there's no direct link between Adolph and his atrocities - but you know what we think of idiots who would attempt to absolve him of his sins, don't you Balto. Same same with Milosevic.

There is a big difference, in that Hitler's lieutenants were acting on his direct orders. Not the same with Slobo, according to the Hague's investigators. BTW, I notice you don't apply your Hitler analogy to Bin Laden and the KLA.

Hitler and Babi Yar as related by these idiots vs Milosevic and Srebrenica as related by you. Quite frankly, there's not much to choose from by way of differences...

How does any of this PROVE that Milo ordered or otherwise had any cntrol over the massacre at Srebrenica? And why did this proof escape the Hague's investigators? Or Clinton in 1996?

...insulting, isn't it?

It might be to Clinton and the Hague's investigators, but I won't say I know the Guarantor was innocent. I just don't believe it solely on NATO's say so.

I don't apply the analogy to Bin Laden and the KLA because that's simply stupid.

Why?

Hitler's lieutenants were acting on his direct orders.
False.

Hitler did, however, provide an environment devoid of legal repercussions and geared by propaganda towards results like Babi Yar, and those results would not have been possible without Hitler - he didn't order, much less know about the massacre on September 3rd, 1939 of some 55 Polish peasants in the village of Truskolasy, but he is nevertheless ultimately responsible.

Same same with Milosevic and Srebrenica - he doesn't have to have been there, he doesn't have to have ordered it: Setting the Bosnian Serbs in motion back in 1992 while fully knowing their methods and supplying them with men and supplies throughout is enough. No Slobo, no Srebrenica. It wasn't Karadzic at Dayton, it was Slobo, for he, not anyone else, provided Mladic and Karadzic with what they needed to cleanse the RSK of the Serb's version of untermenschen.

Ultimately, yours is a straw man argument. Consider it knocked down, with the ultimate responsibility for Srebrenica and the uncounted smaller massacres in Bosnia still resting at Slobo's feet.

Let's confine ourselves to this one issue before delving into your Bin Laden fantasies, shall we? I've already thrashed Destro numerous times on the matter, and it's quite a bore by now.

You flagrantly disregard the fact Karadzic and Mladic would have been arrested and you know it. The only reason Slobo was invited is they knew he would sell the RS out to lift the sanctions. That explains the fact Krajisnik had zero say in any decision Slobo came to, on behalf of the Serbs. You ever hear of the incident between Krajisnik and Holbrooke that occurred in the far room?

Karadzic had no choice but to accept Slobo on his behalf. During the Dayton talks, Momcilo was on the wanted list but delayed for a number of years til they had fabricated lies to arrest him without question. You fail to grasp, as always, the fact behind closed doors in regards to the Serbs.

All you and your pet, Destro has, are little links to "verify" your cloutless "proof". The disbelieving truth can not be found on these links provided by these "so-called reporters" Christianne "Minnie Mouse saves Sarajevo" Amanpour (marriage to Clinton PR spokesperson), your Sudetic friend (Croat who abhors the Serbs), Wm Safire, Martin Sugarman (I have a tape recording when he was "invited" to so-called speak at a Muslim Student Organization open forum. Open only to his views, as he shut me out of any further questions when I challenged his "proof" with my own visual proof to discredit and embarress his ass on public stage. Boy!!! You should have seen his eyes widen right up when I told him where I just returned from 72 hours previously. HEHEHE. "I cant talk with you, you are out of control" word for word. How so? I jotted down each of is lies on paper and began the process of correcting him with some visual fact and some limited eyewitness account and first-hand accounts from a few credible Serbs. Total humiliation of him as you humuliate yourself on this worldwide forum.

Prior to your providing links, know what the heck you are talking about. Prijedor, geesh, you have no idea what happened there, do you? What about Petrinje and/or Glina, boyo? Tell me what happened there? Better yet, lets go round and round with Srebrinca and Gorazde, lets do? Hoplite, you are just a whiny man who needs to resurrect your own self-ego by laying putdowns on others.

re post 31... I called his Sugarmans bluffing lies when I brought up his Sarajevan lies. I "offered" to show and put up on display photos of proof that the Muslims were honest to goodness, placing heavy weapons inside hospitals, cemetaries, etc... Though, I did not have those photoes on me, he became very upset. That is when he said I was out of control. Funny thing is with me, wonder, I look and sound at times like an egomaniacal imbeciile, innocent and impressionable "young upstanding man"... HA! Piss me off and yeah buddy!...:) That is what Sugarman did, so I called his bluff. Luckily, I did happen to have photos in the manila folder I brought...:) You see, when the opposition is lying and when confronted, they name call you in every attempt to discredit you. Hence what Hoplite does.

Interesting "flare ups." Vera writes like a lawyer-prosecutor. No need to get all worked up about it. Prosecutors exaggerate, defense lawyers minimize.

None of these issues will be solved on this Forum.

This Forum should be a source of information, links and references.

It should be a source of free opinion.

I seriously doubt that anyone will change anyone else's mind with "brilliant" arguments.

Nations, like people, tend to stay put. Croatians are in love with their fascist past, Serbs feel victimized, Americans feel they need to save the world, and so on.

Winning sides are never in the wrong; losing sides are always in the wrong. That's the way it was, is and will be. It's human nature: I call it the Divine Ego complex, the ego Freud left out. Twenty years from now, this will be old and forgotten, the way Carter-Reagan TV debate is. Some of you were still in diapers when it happend. But way back then it was real and newsworthy.

No amount of argument will change the outocme of ICTY's verdict. Miloshevich was condmened before his trial. The trial is done to humiliate and it is doing a good job.

Radicalizing Serbs even further is not a good formula for the future. Collaborationist scum like Djindjich & Company will not prevail in a state of national insult. Buying peace did not work in the Middle East. It won't work in the Balkans.

Rather it's time for damage control, but none is forthcoming. The Impirial Hydra has no foresight. Merchants never do. It strikes without thinking. So far, the Hydra was good at destroying, and usurping, but has not solved one single problem it set out to solve. Remember that.

False. Hitler did, however, provide an environment devoid of legal repercussions and geared by propaganda towards results like Babi Yar, and those results would not have been possible without Hitler - he didn't order, much less know about the massacre on September 3rd, 1939 of some 55 Polish peasants in the village of Truskolasy, but he is nevertheless ultimately responsible.

With all due respect, you're dead wrong. Hitler ORDERED his troops to wage a brutal campaign against the Russians, and he wasn't disobeyed. That he didn't order or know about this one massacre doesn't mean they weren't following his DIRECT orders.

Same same with Milosevic and Srebrenica - he doesn't have to have been there, he doesn't have to have ordered it: Setting the Bosnian Serbs in motion back in 1992 while fully knowing their methods and supplying them with men and supplies throughout is enough. It wasn't Karadzic at Dayton, it was Slobo, for he, not anyone else, provided Mladic and Karadzic with what they needed to cleanse the RSK of the Serb's version of untermenschen.

So why did this escape Clinton in 1996 and the Hague investigators now? You still haven't answered that.

Ultimately, yours is a straw man argument. Consider it knocked down, with the ultimate responsibility for Srebrenica and the uncounted smaller massacres in Bosnia still resting at Slobo's feet.

That is not my argument, nor am I actually making one one way or another. That was the conclusion of the Hague's investigators, and apparently of the Clinton administration in 1996. I have just posted what others said.

Let's confine ourselves to this one issue before delving into your Bin Laden fantasies, shall we?

Nope. If you have something to show that this and this are wrong, I want to see it.

You have removed the need to show a direct order from Hitler for the massacres perpetrated by his regime, and the ICTY is operating under the same rubric in regards to Milosevic. When those Polish villagers were killed, German forces had laws in place proscribing such acts - those laws simply weren't enforced under Hitler's regime and became meaningless. Same same with Slobo and laws against murdering non-Serbs in those parts of Yugoslavia outside of Serbia proper.

Note, Balto, that Arkan operated hand in glove with the Yugoslav Army and Security Services, which were under the control of Milosevic. The case is closed right there - Milosevic had both control and knowledge of the Tigers and all their crimes the same way Hitler exercised control and had knowledge of the crimes of his followers in Eastern Europe. Between Truskolasy and Bijeljina, there's not much to choose from, Balto_boy.

Milosevic was used to achieve an end in 1996, being the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords. Once that was done, you will note that he was treated like the pariah he deserved to be treated as - and he is charged by the ICTY with complicity in what happened in Bosnia, as a player in a "Joint Criminal Enterprise", just like he should be.

I want to see it.

Then you're just going to have to wait, aren't you?
One issue at a time, Balto.

You have removed the need to show a direct order from Hitler for the massacres perpetrated by his regime, and the ICTY is operating under the same rubric in regards to Milosevic....Note, Balto, that Arkan operated hand in glove with the Yugoslav Army and Security Services, which were under the control of Milosevic. The case is closed right there - Milosevic had both control and knowledge of the Tigers and all their crimes the same way Hitler exercised control and had knowledge of the crimes of his followers in Eastern Europe.

I knew that's what you were getting at. No, I haven't removed the need to demonstrate that a direct order was given with this example, because direct orders were given by Hitler. The investigators found no such link between Milo and Srebrenica, and CLEARED him based on this.

Milosevic was used to achieve an end in 1996, being the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords. Once that was done, you will note that he was treated like the pariah he deserved to be treated as...

Not so. He was still being dealt with as late as December, 1998 even after the Serbs showed their disfavor with his leadership in 1996, although you may be right about how he "deserved" to be treated.

Then you're just going to have to wait, aren't you?

Probably forever, but it's not something I'll lose sleep over.

Vera writes like Vooch, Kosta. ;)

I find the little jabs on all sides quite unnecessary but utterly amusing. The good thing is: the information flow is two-way, and that's what counts.

On your post scrimptum, I think I will post the Memorandum for all to see in due time, if or when it comes up for discussion. It's another one of those often quoted issues everyone merely knows about.

It should be quite educational.

Happy Holidays to all...

_KOCTA

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