Dec 12th Report from UN Tribunal - Milosevic vs. Humna Rights Watch

jurist.com ^ | Dec 12, 2002 | Vera Martinovic

[Balto_Boy]

The position is this - either you concede that Hitler did not need to issue direct orders for the massacres perpetrated by his troops, thus also conceding that Milosevic need not have issued direct orders to be culpable for the massacres perpetrated by his troops, or you hold to the position that direct orders are needed for culpability, whereupon I will apply your position back to Babi Yar, etc.

Hitler DID directly order his troops to commit atrocities, so I don't need to concede anything. I also haven't contradicted this ANYWHERE. If you disagree, then indicate the post number and post the statement here I said that Hitler did not order atrocities.

So the questions remain, how does what happened over 60 years ago prove the Guarantor ordered Srebrenica, and why did it escape the Hague's investigators?

[Hoplite]

No, I'm talking about "conquered" territories where some jackass decides he owns someone else's house because it's next to his farm, which is the nuts and bolts basis of Serb nationalist claims to non-Serb Bosnian land, houses, cars, bank accounts, daughters, and everything else their covetous hearts desired when they overran non-Serb residents of their new, temporary statelet.

See all that non-red inside the Republika Srpska? That's right - refugees or dead, courtesy of Milosevic/Karadzic et al. You can do the same exercise when you come across a Muslim or Croat map to complement your Serb map - you'll find the shading for their distribution doesn't confine itself to any current borders either.

And please review Karadzic's views on Dayton, and how Milosevic cut him out of the picture and dealt directly with Mladic - it's embarassing dealing with individuals who don't even know the basics as far as the side they are hoping to represent.

[Hoplite]

Hitler DID directly order his troops to commit atrocities, so I don't need to concede anything.

You do not understand what a direct order is - it amounts to "You, go to this place, do this thing".

Show me where Hitler directly ordered Babi Yar - whether through actually mentioning Babi Yar, or through explicitly ordering the deaths of Russian Jews.

It's not like there's a whole internet denial industry built around the absence of what you are claiming exists, Balto_boy. You're simply playing the part for Milosevic of those who would claim that Hitler was misunderstood and actually meant for the Jews to be shipped off to Madagascar.

Now provide a direct order from Hitler or concede the point - it's not quite as difficult a proposition to understand as you are making it out to be.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Teritorial distribution of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina (according to settlements) according to the population census on March 31, 1981 (click on the image for full size)

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Ethnic structure of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina (according to settlements) according to the population census on March 31, 1981 (click on the image for full size)

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Teritorial distribution of Serbs in Croatia (according to settlements) according to the population census on March 31, 1981

[Hoplite]

Great - none of your maps go towards rationalizing what happened to non-Serbs in the area that fell under the thrall of Milosevic's forces.

ps, if you throw in the height modifier after you link you image, you can scale the size, like so:

That would be nice.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Please note, this represents the Ethnic Structure of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia according to the census in 1981 and thus it reflects also the decimation of the serbian population caused by genocide, as these regions were part of NDH(Independent State od Croatia) from 1941 to 1945. The serbs would have made a far greater majority in those areas, if it was not for the genocide in WWII and the great losses in WWI and not to forget the anti-serb drawing of republic-borders imposed by the communist-croatian dicator Tito.

The issue of self-determination of serbs in these areas wouldn't have caused any opposition from the 'West' after the second World War, but it did cause strong oppostion in the 1990's. Especially from Germany. How come? Do you think the serbs should have asked the Germans in 1945 after WWII, if it's ok for Germany that the majority serbian areas exercise their right to self-determination? Especially considering Germany's role in the balkans during the war, establishment of fascist Greater Croatia, fascist Greater Albania, campaign of genocide against serbs in these areas. People don't forget their history in the balkans.

As Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina claimed the right to self-determination to seperate from Yugoslvia, the serbs of Krajina and Republika Srpska in response claimed their right to self-determination and secession from the newly created statelettes(they were also absolutely entitled not to leave the Yugoslav federation by the way-but this was also denied to them). That right to self-determination was denied to the serbs from the begining on in 1991/92, no negotiations were offered, it was just prohibited by Tudman, Izetbegovic, Genscher... and so the doors for an armed conflict were openend. Not to mention, that the secession of Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina were unconstitutional in the first place and against the declared will of the serbian population, a constituent people, within those republics.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Great - none of your maps go towards rationalizing what happened to non-Serbs in the area that fell under the thrall of Milosevic's forces.

Don't get me wrong. I never supported any campaign of ethnic cleansing, be it serbs, croats, muslims or any other ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia. Wouldn't have happened, if I was the commander in chief. ;)

The only thing I can say is, that it was a bloody and terrible civil war and these areas were battle zones and all parties were heavily involved in securing their territories during the war. Again, this is not an excuse. What I am trying to discuss is, why the war took place in the first place. That it was very violent and ugly, as civil wars bent to be in general, is well known.

Calling the few million serbs west of the Drina 'Milosevic's forces' is a very incompetent phrase, even for you.

[Hoplite]

You're so wrapped up in your victimhood you can't see how it allowed for the creation of a fresh generation of victims.

There is no excuse for what happened in Bosnia, DEI.

None.

[Hoplite]

Don't get me wrong. I never supported any campaign of ethnic cleansing, be it serbs, croats, muslims or any other ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia. Wouldn't have happened, if I was the commander in chief. ;)

Ok.

Milosevic ultimately controlled Serbs in Knin and Pale through supplies delivered from Serbia - he was the leader of the Serb nation, not just the Serb Republic.

Would you have followed a more enlightened course, not tied to divisive ethnic policies, then I wish it would have been you that succeeded Stambolic - but you would have been struggling against economic forces that many East European leaders have found impossible to face while maintaining their electability, and politics of division are, unfortunately, so much easier to conduct than politics of equality, especially when recent history provides such a fertile field in which to sow discord.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

There is no need for excusing a justified battle for your innate rights. There is a need to punish crimes however. As all sides (and this includes also the non-native sides involved in the wars, i.e. NATO) commited crimes, I don't see the excuse for serbs to become the balkan's scapegoats.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Milosevic ultimately controlled Serbs in Knin and Pale through supplies delivered from Serbia - he was the leader of the Serb nation, not just the Serb Republic.

I disagree here. He was, in the begining maybe, but not later on. You remember that he even imposed sanctions on the serbs west of the Drina, that old bastard. Can't remember the year now. He established the FRY in 1992! I thought he was out for a 'Greater Serbia'!? So, why didn't he incorporate these serbian areas west of the Drina into the new FRY? Remember, that was back in 1992. My conclusion is, that he realy didn't give a damn about them. Otherwise, why would he have done that? And do you remember, when he was in Pale with that Greek Prime Minister trying to sell the last peace plan to the Bosnian serb parliament. Without success! The bosnian serbs even showed him the way out, discussed and rejected. Slobo was p*ssed, but here he was right. After that the bosnian serbs got their asses whupped. Should have listened to old Slobo. But that's on their conscience, can't blame Slobo for that one, he told them so.

Would you have followed a more enlightened course, not tied to divisive ethnic policies, then I wish it would have been you that succeeded Stambolic - but you would have been struggling against economic forces that many East European leaders have found impossible to face while maintaining their electability, and politics of division are, unfortunately, so much easier to conduct than politics of equality, especially when recent history provides such a fertile field in which to sow discord.

The strongest supporters for a unified Yugoslavia amongst all nations, were the serbs. That was always labeled as an indication of 'greater-serbia' tendencies and suppressing other nations within Yugoslavia. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Too much discord was sowed from the outside as well. Germany comes to mind.

[DestroyEraseImprove]

Would you have followed a more enlightened course...

Hm..., but who would have enlightened Tudman, Izetbegovic and so on? That's easy to say, but the situation was a total chaos at the time. Interferences from outside, the most important political institutions blocked(the JNA by ZNG, 'President' Mesic officialy declaring he's out to destroy the country in poltical terms and so on), the economy shattered, newly created armies and states within the state, fighting, killing, chaos. The serbs did not only see the country, that was home and safety to their whole nation,beeing ripped appart, but also had to grasp they were ripped appart as a unified nation in this whole process(and I don't have to tell you how painfull and sorrowful it was in the last centuries to achieve this unification). Germany, the country that saw unification of it's nation a few months before, was hell bent to establish the Drina as the new border between serbs and serbs again. Man, believe me, these thoughts are driving me crazy again while I'm writing this. I consider Germany's role as pure evil in a historical context regarding the 1990's. Pitty, the BND and the Pentagon had congruent conceptions how to solve the serbian question in the balkans this time. Hope the BND isn't watching FR:)!

[kosta50]

I contend that direct responsibility (commission) and negligence in addressing those crimes of comission (omission) do not extend up to the pinnacle of power as they do in the case of Milosevic and his forces in the Balkans

We can reasonably assume that, based on the difference in the organizational and power-base structure between these two.

But, realistically speaking, do you honestly know that Miloshevich knew and had direct control over each and every move of each and every company commander and/or Serb unit in both theaters of operations? I find that difficult to believe, as much as I find it difficult to believe that Gen. Westmoreland, let alone President Johnson, had similar knowledge and control over all and every unit and commander in the field.

That doesn't mean he didn't; it's just highly unlikely. I could be wrong of course.

[vooch]

Quite entertaining don't ya think? Poor old Hoplite hasn't recovered from the trashing he received from inquest. The idiot doesn't even know that Vera didn't post on slobodan-milosevic.org, but that someone else posted her remarks with her consent.... It goes along the lines of 'it was on pravda's web-site, therefore it is communist and means nothing', ignoring the fact of the original publication. Idiot, idiot, idiot. It's a pity his behavior is still on the level of a 4 year old... VRN

It is transparent that Hoplite will do anything to change the subject from the topic of the article (whose topic is HumWarrior race baiting lies exposed at the UN Tribunal)..........and he'll expend enormous effort to defend his Jihadist pals in Bosnia and Kosovo

[kosta50]

Re: #75

What I am hinting at are two different approaches to command repsonsability:

(a) Ignorance of the law does not absolve a person of responsability. By the same token, in the spirit of the principle of holding commanders responsable for the actions of their subordinates, a chain of command in its entirety is included. In other words, it really doesn't matter how how far up the pinnacle of command/power an incident goes, does it? If the principle of ultimate negligence falls on the highest office holders, than it should not matter if the people in charge had knowledge and or control of every subordinate's action, right?

A perfect example of this would bw the ill-fated Tailhook incident involving Naval aviators, and all the heads that rolled.

(b) On the other hand, if the responsability is extended only to those who had immediate and direct knowledge of the acitivities (as in the case of My Lai), then Miloshevich's trial is flawed (unless the judges can produce hard evidence showing direct orders coming from Miloshevich himself to commit crimes, or covering up knolwegde of them) just as it may seem wrong to you that Gen. Westmoreland or President Johnson should have been put on trial for the war crimes committed by their troops.

Again, this is not comparing the righetousness or evil on either side, just the principle involved that a crime is a crime is a crime, regardless who commits it.

It seems to me that the distinction in the case of Miloshevich and Serbs in general is unprincipled and politically motivated. This is precisely the type of proceedings that brought about complete opposition of the United States to the world court.

[Hoplite]

Sretam Bozic. Vesela Nova Godina.

And all that other Gregorian/Orthodox temporally mismatched but nevertheless the same cheer.

I'll get back to y'all on this stuff in a couple o'days.

[kosta50]

Temporally "mismatched?" It's a tradition. It doesn't slow down traffic or cause headaches like inches, gallons, Farenheit and pounds do...while the entire world uses the metric system.

Srechan Bozhich to all ye metrically mismatched!

KOCTA

PS there is something called srecha -- luck; it comes from the word sretya. There is NO SUCH word as "sretan" in the Serbian language. In the old days it was spelled sretyan, and today it's spelled phonetically -- your pick (the old orthography was never outlawed).

[Balto_Boy]

Show me where Hitler directly ordered Babi Yar - whether through actually mentioning Babi Yar, or through explicitly ordering the deaths of Russian Jews....Now provide a direct order from Hitler or concede the point...

"Unlike his earlier conquests, Hitler ordered his generals in 1941 to conduct the war against the USSR as one of annihilation rather than capture and coercion."

You won't be getting a concession for Christmas, but enjoy your holiday anyway.