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Death of American Twins, Liberty and Freedom
Self

Posted on 11/25/2002 3:27:05 PM PST by Old philosopher

Today, November 25, 2002, with the signature of George W. Bush creating the Department of Homeland Security, a milestone in the History of our great country was marked by the death of the Twin Pillars of our society, Freedom and Liberty.

The fight to keep alive these two foundations of our Nation has been a long and arduous one. The mercilous attacks on them have come from politicians on both sides of the aisle in their ever continuing grab for more and more power. Regardless of popular support for the twins, the political class has long sought to bring about their demise. In a "Bi-Partisan" effort both houses of Congress have voted to destroy the most important rights of the People, only a very few of the Congress opposed the death of these important twins.

Those of us who have known these twins for a long time will be very much saddened by their death, and those who have only known them briefly will soon learn how important they were to the Welfare and Security of our Great Country. With the death of Liberty and Freedom it will only be a short time until the Populace of this country will be living under a Dictatorship, controlled by an "Elite" class of politicians who will dictate every facet of our lives.

Requiem In Pacet!


TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
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To: budwiesest
Fact is, you don't want me in the next election. I'd kick liberal and Rino ass up and down the street.

Or you'd turn blue and spit in their eye!

LOL!

221 posted on 11/26/2002 2:20:12 AM PST by Kevin Curry
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Comment #222 Removed by Moderator

To: Old philosopher
Seniors shouldn't drive or vote.
223 posted on 11/26/2002 4:23:30 AM PST by RWG
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To: FreeReign
The U.S. Constitution does empower a government. Does the Constitution decrease freedom?

Of course the Constitution doesn't "do" anything. It is only a statement about how the government described by it ought to function and what the limits of that government are. So, the real question is, does a government under our Constitution limit freedom?

If we assume the government truly operated as the Constitution dictates, and that the state and municiple governments also conformed, freedom would be preserved. Freedom is what you have before someone uses force to limit it, whether a thug (retail) or government (wholesale). So a government does not really "provide" freedom, it can only "preserve it."

In practice, the government never confines its power to the limits set by the Constitution, because no "piece of paper" is capable of exercising any kind of power over anybody. While the Federal government has certainly limited freedoms (taxes, land regulations, etc. etc.) certainly the biggest culprits, and the ones most of us as individual experience dialy, are the state and local governments.

Hank

224 posted on 11/26/2002 5:27:11 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Southack
You simply can not(sic) survive in today's modern world with that poor of an education...

Well thanks for that fine illustration of your education. Your educators have done a fine job turning you into exactly the kind of sheep they prefer.

Hank

225 posted on 11/26/2002 5:37:39 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Southack
Is your idea "better" in your mind because you can't name a specific freedom that's been lost, or is it better because it would change the subject away from an area in which you can only lose?

Suffer me not, Fool.

Respond to my question or return to your sugar tit and mull over the fact that your happiness in your La La little world denies your ever realizing what has been stolen from you. Your very birthright. Useful idiot indeed. Bleat on Sheople.

First amendment....> you cannot PRAY too close to and abortion mill....Second amendment...>Every gun law is an abridgement.....suffer me not, Fool.

226 posted on 11/26/2002 5:42:20 AM PST by S.O.S121.500
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To: Old philosopher
I am shocked and dismayed at the treatment, the personal treatment that you received here on this thread. Whatever happened to respecting one's elders? Even if these folks disagree with your take they don't have to insult you so.

Funny these same folks would be slobbering all over you like weaselly sycophants if you had posted that as a WWII vet you fought to defend our freedoms. But if you rise to a challenge the current situation to defend liberty with an opinon piece then you are a "senile old fart". And this by folks who cry about our debased culture too.

227 posted on 11/26/2002 5:46:00 AM PST by u-89
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To: MissAmericanPie
While I trust Bush not to abuse these powers, I shudder to think of it in the hands of "no controlling legal authority", Gore or any demoncrat for that matter.

You don't need me telling you this but don't trust ANY politician. Secondly terrorists and proffessional criminals will be smart enough to evade the system. This will only track law abiding citizens and dumb asses. This system is just begging for abuse and not too unlikely politically incorrect citizens will be deemed terrorists. Sound far fetched? We already have "hate crime" laws which are, lets face it, thought control. We are not headed into good times.

228 posted on 11/26/2002 5:57:58 AM PST by u-89
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To: u-89
I don't think it's far fetched at all, the ability to label citizens that disagree with government policies as potential terrorist is there. Throw in a couple of more Pentagon/WTC attacks, get the paranoia pot boiling and we are there.
229 posted on 11/26/2002 6:17:38 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: nopardons
Let's see ... there was more freedoms at the beginnings of this nation, than there are now . Is that what you think ? How many slaves are owned, by American citizens now, as opposed to in 1780?

Right, exactly. We don't even have the freedom to own slaves anymore.

(I see the "big issue" to you is, "freedom to vote," which is nothing more than being given the choice of one's executioner.)

Hank

230 posted on 11/26/2002 6:33:50 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: u-89
Thank you for your kind words of support.

The responses to my original post seem to be divided into two factions; those who believe in freedom and liberty and who are intelligent enough to recognize what has happened to our once great country (you and several others); and the wussified, limp wristed, deballed cowards, who probably run to the basement to hide and piss in their pants every time the "gubmint" issues a "Terrorist" alert. (which happens with astounding regularity).

Unlike most of that second group, I did serve in the military during WWII,not as a Draftee, but as a Volunteer. But in that time period we believed that we were fighting to preserve the freedom and liberty that we already enjoyed. Unfortunately many of my generation seem to have failed to instill in the minds of their children the values with which we were raised, instead they raised a nation of cowards, afraid to stand up for their rights and afraid to speak out against the political elite who are destroying what we once held dear.

I have said it before, and it bears repeating here, "In my youth we were a nation of free MEN, willing to fight and die for our country; today we have become a nation of cowards, willing to give up all of their freedom in exchange for the promise of "Safety" that those same cowards will never enjoy"

I make no personal attacks on others, regardless of their small minded personal attacks on me. Arguing with people of such little mental capabilities is an exercise in futility! If they think that my comments apply to them as individuals it is probably because their mental capacity is too small to recognize the truth when they read it.

Those are my opinions and I will go to my grave defending them.
231 posted on 11/26/2002 6:47:23 AM PST by Old philosopher
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Comment #232 Removed by Moderator

To: nopardons
WHose runnin' ??

I just want to go to sleep .....

"...you're completely ignoranyt...

The few items that I mentioned have already been fodder for the news and talk radio stations (even the local ones): the inforced drug vaccinations, the 'watching' of everything that any American purchases, etc.....

It's just that every BushBot (here on unFreeP) wants to challenge anything posted, that doesn't fall so in-line with Shrub so as to not cast a shadow, that even the actual truth gets lost in the rhetoric....

But, really, ignoranyt ?? ?? ? least i can spell

233 posted on 11/26/2002 8:02:07 AM PST by Coto
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To: Old philosopher; Dog Gone
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I love these threads. Dog Gone had the extreme courtesy to actually read the bill, and from his posts it looks like there's nothing untoward in it. The TIPS plan bit the dust and there is no mention of that stupid TIA data mining plan. (Dog, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

That's not to say I love the government. I do not agree w/ warantless searches and siezures. I think there should be a Constitutional Amendement to protect privacy, esp. in the realm of personal information. But this is an area where both liberals and conservatives agree. We should be making sure people like Poindexter aren't running the show.

But to say there are less freedoms now than in 1776 is ludicrous. Hey, even the assault weapons ban sunsets in two years. Please, paranoid Libertarians, take a chill pill.

234 posted on 11/26/2002 8:45:08 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Old philosopher
Oh one more thing:

I think If I see "Neimoller" quoted again or have to read about "liberty vs. security" I might puke.

Who exactly are "they" coming for? And why cannot one have both liberty and security?
235 posted on 11/26/2002 8:47:22 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Old philosopher
Today, November 25, 2002, with the signature of George W. Bush creating the Department of Homeland Security, a milestone in the History of our great country was marked by the death of the Twin Pillars of our society, Freedom and Liberty.

Gee, that's funny, I've read most of this bill, and IMO it generates a net INCREASE in privacy, by outlawing national ID cards and TIPS and providing for a Privacy Officer to ensure compliance with federal Privacy Laws.

236 posted on 11/26/2002 8:49:03 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Old philosopher
All of you Bush Bots are, and will be in denial on this subject! Do you really believe that all of the new powers given to the Elite Political Estblishment will be used with restraint?

Well, then, why don't you identify these new powers, with section number, so we can discuss them?

237 posted on 11/26/2002 8:50:19 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Super Mak90kid
First off I'm no kid. I'm a man in his 20's who has been through quite a bit.

Sorry man, I'm in my twenties, and the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. To someone in his fifties, you and I are still kids.

238 posted on 11/26/2002 8:56:46 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: Old philosopher
>>>I make no personal attacks on others...

>>> ... the wussified, limp wristed, deballed cowards...
>>>... today we have become a nation of cowards...
>>>... Arguing with people of such little mental capabilities...

Not only are you maladjusted, Old Fart, you're a liar too.

239 posted on 11/26/2002 9:24:59 AM PST by Reagan Man
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To: Cultural Jihad
Too many authoritarian Taliban types are simply married to the idea that an all powerful government, (dictatorship would be just fine), is the answer to all questions.

I noticed that you finally let the truth slip, that you aren't a conservative. Now attacking conservatives as well as libertarians gives you away for what you truly are, The American Taliban.

240 posted on 11/26/2002 9:35:50 AM PST by Protagoras
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