Posted on 09/03/2002 4:27:46 AM PDT by SLB
Shortly after the close of Operation Anaconda in March, the Army's small-arms experts saw a surge in e-mail traffic from soldiers critiquing the performance of their weapons.
According to troops returning from combat, key weapons such as the M4 carbine, M9 pistol and M246 Squad Automatic Weapon did not always perform up to spec. Soldiers reported jams and misfires, and complained that, in high-altitude mountain warfare, they wanted weapons with larger rounds that could "drop a man with one shot."
The Army is now evaluating the lessons learned in Afghanistan. In mid-March, U.S. Central Command dispatched a team of experts to Afghanistan to survey soldiers about the quality of their weapons and gear.
The team, led by Lt. Col. Charlie Dean of the Natick Soldier Center in Massachusetts, the Army's main laboratory for developing soldiers' equipment, found that U.S. soldiers were generally satisfied with their gear. But the Natick team found problems with important items: body armor, boots and some of the rifles and pistols.
According to Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, Army product manager for small arms, that survey prompted Army specialists to take a closer look and see if it they could identify the cause of those problems.
"We took that as an opportunity to go back and talk to those same soldiers," he said. "When we looked at [Dean's] report, we said, `Hey, this is great, this is an opportunity to go and see if there's truly some problems out there.' "
Carpenter's group interviewed soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division and 101st Airborne Division who took part in Operation Anaconda. While his group found that soldiers were generally confident in their weapons, it found that key weapons—such as the M4 Carbine—did indeed suffer from jams and "misfeeds" in combat. Soldiers also complained that standard ammunition, designed during the Cold War for use against Soviet troops wearing body armor, was not always suited for use against an unconventional enemy.
No silver bullet
Some of Carpenter's most interesting findings have to do with lethality of the ammunition issued to U.S. troops. According to some reports from the field, the M855 round—a 5.56 mm cartridge used interchangeably in the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), the M16 and the M4—had a tendency to "overpenetrate." In other words, it could pass right through a person without causing lethal damage.
Carpenter said there were cases where "where you shot right through the guy—and it wasn't stopping him, and they kept coming."
However, Carpenter said most of the evidence of "overpenetration" was anecdotal and unsubstantiated.
"The 855 round is a great all-around round," he said. "What we heard in e-mail traffic and some comments was—very few substantiated, I'll tell you—I shot right through the guy. With any type of round at high velocities and certain ranges, unless you hit something on that person's body that's going to cause that bullet to begin to yaw or deform, you may get overpenetration. Basically, you're going to punch a hole right through the guy."
However, the Army is doing a lethality study on the issue. The 5.56 mm cartridge has evolved since Vietnam to create a NATO-standard round that is compatible with the SAW; its higher-velocity bullet has a slightly faster rate of twist and a steel penetrator.
"That's a great round for punching through body armor, based on that [Soviet] threat that we were facing during the 1970s and 1980s," said Carpenter, who noted that few al Qaeda or Taliban soldiers had body armor.
Asked about the main lesson for the Army, Carpenter added: "Overall, our stuff works, and our soldiers do very well with it, and they adapt our weapons to every environment. And they learn rapidly on how to take care of the weapon in every unique environment."
Desert dust-ups
Part of the problem, Carpenter said, was that Afghanistan posed some "unique" environmental problems that made weapons maintenance a real headache. The country's fine dust, in particular, seems to seep into everything, he said.
"This is different sand than we saw during Desert Storm, and all those things have a unique effect on weapons," he said.
For instance, 54 percent of the soldiers polled by Natick on the performance of the SAW reported problems cleaning and maintaining the weapon. Roughly the same proportion of soldiers reported rust and corrosion problems in the M9 Pistol barrel.
The Army's typical solution: Apply a lot of elbow grease.
"We tell guys, `Clean your weapons,'" Carpenter said, adding: "But sometimes, you don't have all the time it takes to do that."
However, soldiers didn't always have everything in their kits to make the task of cleaning easier. As the Natick report noted, soldiers had to supplement their cleaning kits by paying out of pocket for extra items such as barber brushes and dental picks that can serve as weapons-cleaning tools.
Jammed up
Some of the problems could be traced to the equipment itself, not just to the environment.
The M4 Carbine—a shorter-barreled version of the Army's 5.56 mm M16 assault rifle series—was widely used in Afghanistan. It has a light, modular design that allows for interchangeable weapons sights and other additions.
The Natick survey said 20 percent of soldiers reported double feeding; 15 percent reported feeding jams. Carpenter said that this was a subject of concern.
"Overall, the M4 is a great weapon, but we heard we had some stoppages with it, so we've got to drill down and find out ... what's causing those stoppages," he said. "Is it the performance of the weapon itself? Or is it something else?"
According to Carpenter's survey, the majority of the stoppages were caused by aging magazines. Some magazines had worn lips and feeders; sand would seep in, and as rounds stacked in the magazine start to get flattened out, they would begin to bind up.
"That's where we find the majority of the problems," said Carpenter. "The problem wasn't the weapon, the performance of the weapon itself, it was the magazine. So we're right now looking at ways that we can get the word out to the field to inspect the magazines. Sometimes, we just don't throw things out, and perhaps we've kept some of the magazines around too long."
A similar problem affected the M9 pistol. The Natick report said: "Soldiers had problems with the magazine springs becoming too slack."
Carpenter said the Army would look into ways to inspect magazines to make sure soldiers are not issued old or worn ones. And he said he was working closely with Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois to come up with a document or slip of paper to send out to the field so platoon leaders can instruct troops on what to do to make sure their magazines work.
Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown
Thus we return to the original intent / issue of this thread :o)
Stay Safe !!
Stay Safe !!
The AK47 was simple, reliable, robust, short swing axis, light weight, cheap, and plenty accurate enough for the CLOSE ranges that the bastards preferred for engagements - and inflicted horrible fast bleeding wounds. It was well suited to the smaller stature of the enemy - and much easier to move through cover and through the dark unseen obstacles in the thick groundcover or undergrowth.
One other thing --- there is no more terrifying sound, than the unexpected coughing of AK47s coming from multiple directions....
The sound is VERY distinctive - and it WILL free up ration constipated bowels.
Semper Fi
OK, how does anything you said contradict anything I or others said on this thread?
The 'yaw' (and it's not actually 'yaw', its a slow base rotation around the point) is a hydraulic function which is present in the air (which is a low density fluid for these kind of calculations) and magnified when hitting a more dense fluid such as ballistic gelatine or a body.
The distance at which this occurs is a function of momentum and twist rate.
If rifling twist doesn't vary the stability of the bullet's flight (keeping the long axis of the bullet coincidental with the direction of flight)--only velocity--why rifle barrels at all? and why throw a football with a spiral?
Well it depends. Anything other than a "soft" target environment (like criminal intruders) I'm not even thinking about buckshot or hollow points, neither are you! :)
I'm not even thinking about buckshot or hollow points, neither are you!.........?
I was thinkin honest I was ...."read" my posts Bro, I read yours !!
most of the time :o) !
Stay Safe !
Stay Safe !
Nope, I'm not reading your posts today. I'm strictly here to give you a hard time. It hurts me more than it hurts you.
See, you said something that could possibly construed to be remotely favoring the AK over the AR. You know the consequences of such actions in these AK v AR threads by now, they're as old as the forum. Now you've gone and aroused the suspicions of the AR police around here, of which I happen to be one.
If you keep this up the wet noodle is coming out, I'm serious buster. Now as punishment I want you to write 100 times "Professionals Use the AR".
Sorry to hear that.
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