Soldiers Report Gun Glitches

Shortly after the close of Operation Anaconda in March, the Army's small-arms experts saw a surge in e-mail traffic from soldiers critiquing the performance of their weapons.

According to troops returning from combat, key weapons such as the M4 carbine, M9 pistol and M246 Squad Automatic Weapon did not always perform up to spec. Soldiers reported jams and misfires, and complained that, in high-altitude mountain warfare, they wanted weapons with larger rounds that could "drop a man with one shot."

The Army is now evaluating the lessons learned in Afghanistan. In mid-March, U.S. Central Command dispatched a team of experts to Afghanistan to survey soldiers about the quality of their weapons and gear.

The team, led by Lt. Col. Charlie Dean of the Natick Soldier Center in Massachusetts, the Army's main laboratory for developing soldiers' equipment, found that U.S. soldiers were generally satisfied with their gear. But the Natick team found problems with important items: body armor, boots and some of the rifles and pistols.

According to Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, Army product manager for small arms, that survey prompted Army specialists to take a closer look and see if it they could identify the cause of those problems.

"We took that as an opportunity to go back and talk to those same soldiers," he said. "When we looked at [Dean's] report, we said, `Hey, this is great, this is an opportunity to go and see if there's truly some problems out there.' "

Carpenter's group interviewed soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division and 101st Airborne Division who took part in Operation Anaconda. While his group found that soldiers were generally confident in their weapons, it found that key weapons—such as the M4 Carbine—did indeed suffer from jams and "misfeeds" in combat. Soldiers also complained that standard ammunition, designed during the Cold War for use against Soviet troops wearing body armor, was not always suited for use against an unconventional enemy.

Some of Carpenter's most interesting findings have to do with lethality of the ammunition issued to U.S. troops. According to some reports from the field, the M855 round—a 5.56 mm cartridge used interchangeably in the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), the M16 and the M4—had a tendency to "overpenetrate." In other words, it could pass right through a person without causing lethal damage.

Carpenter said there were cases where "where you shot right through the guy—and it wasn't stopping him, and they kept coming."

However, Carpenter said most of the evidence of "overpenetration" was anecdotal and unsubstantiated.

"The 855 round is a great all-around round," he said. "What we heard in e-mail traffic and some comments was—very few substantiated, I'll tell you—I shot right through the guy. With any type of round at high velocities and certain ranges, unless you hit something on that person's body that's going to cause that bullet to begin to yaw or deform, you may get overpenetration. Basically, you're going to punch a hole right through the guy."

However, the Army is doing a lethality study on the issue. The 5.56 mm cartridge has evolved since Vietnam to create a NATO-standard round that is compatible with the SAW; its higher-velocity bullet has a slightly faster rate of twist and a steel penetrator.

"That's a great round for punching through body armor, based on that [Soviet] threat that we were facing during the 1970s and 1980s," said Carpenter, who noted that few al Qaeda or Taliban soldiers had body armor.

Asked about the main lesson for the Army, Carpenter added: "Overall, our stuff works, and our soldiers do very well with it, and they adapt our weapons to every environment. And they learn rapidly on how to take care of the weapon in every unique environment."

Part of the problem, Carpenter said, was that Afghanistan posed some "unique" environmental problems that made weapons maintenance a real headache. The country's fine dust, in particular, seems to seep into everything, he said.

"This is different sand than we saw during Desert Storm, and all those things have a unique effect on weapons," he said.

For instance, 54 percent of the soldiers polled by Natick on the performance of the SAW reported problems cleaning and maintaining the weapon. Roughly the same proportion of soldiers reported rust and corrosion problems in the M9 Pistol barrel.

"We tell guys, `Clean your weapons,'" Carpenter said, adding: "But sometimes, you don't have all the time it takes to do that."

However, soldiers didn't always have everything in their kits to make the task of cleaning easier. As the Natick report noted, soldiers had to supplement their cleaning kits by paying out of pocket for extra items such as barber brushes and dental picks that can serve as weapons-cleaning tools.

Some of the problems could be traced to the equipment itself, not just to the environment.

The M4 Carbine—a shorter-barreled version of the Army's 5.56 mm M16 assault rifle series—was widely used in Afghanistan. It has a light, modular design that allows for interchangeable weapons sights and other additions.

The Natick survey said 20 percent of soldiers reported double feeding; 15 percent reported feeding jams. Carpenter said that this was a subject of concern.

"Overall, the M4 is a great weapon, but we heard we had some stoppages with it, so we've got to drill down and find out ... what's causing those stoppages," he said. "Is it the performance of the weapon itself? Or is it something else?"

According to Carpenter's survey, the majority of the stoppages were caused by aging magazines. Some magazines had worn lips and feeders; sand would seep in, and as rounds stacked in the magazine start to get flattened out, they would begin to bind up.

"That's where we find the majority of the problems," said Carpenter. "The problem wasn't the weapon, the performance of the weapon itself, it was the magazine. So we're right now looking at ways that we can get the word out to the field to inspect the magazines. Sometimes, we just don't throw things out, and perhaps we've kept some of the magazines around too long."

A similar problem affected the M9 pistol. The Natick report said: "Soldiers had problems with the magazine springs becoming too slack."

Carpenter said the Army would look into ways to inspect magazines to make sure soldiers are not issued old or worn ones. And he said he was working closely with Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois to come up with a document or slip of paper to send out to the field so platoon leaders can instruct troops on what to do to make sure their magazines work.

Living in Connecticut close to NYC and New jersey I am familiar with the need for abll ammunition in those jurisdictions because of the legal quagmire those areas are. As to not using hollowpoints in "civilized" warfare please explain how this type of warfare against terrorists is or should be civilized. It was not a civilized act to commandeer a civilian airliner and fly it into civilian office buildings. While the Pentagon may have been a legitimate military target the use of a civilian airliner as a cruise missle is inherently anathema to civilized people.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

As you well know in military service all weapons fire is NOT used to kill per se but to also allow for breaking contact for an E&E out of an AO you know is too hot for your small team.......

High capacity supression fire, for a squeal and peel , from a rifle or handgun is a good thing. But I would not give up my 1911A1 for all the tea in China when up to my hips in grenade pins.

The 357SIG caliber deserves a close look as it is my second choice/suggestion for a CHL/CCW caliber sidearm.

As to the AK 47 I have found no other weapon short of the 12 gauge benelli suitable for my CQB confidence . Good Hollow point ammo and "better" optics ,Aimpoint 5000M, allow me torso hits in my urban arena all day long at 200 meters. Anyone further away than that I can hopefully evade in my retirement /civilian status :o)

My selection (AAA) of the AK was based on it's ability to function under "all " local conditions, cheap and available magazines and parts and my 200 dollar NFA/Class III tax stamp made it my primary house gun when home invaders in the news started yelling police and wearing kevlar.

I figure a 1911 an AK and 3 rotweillers makes home invasion a moot point pretty much here in Poohville but then who ever said criminal elements are smart ? Just my form of insurance, nothing bad about my AR's ect ect just meets my needs..........

Stay Safe !

Agreed, seen a shooting report from LAPD SWAT team where point man was wearing full body armor and carrying body bunker shield with hand gun. A woman sitting on the bedroom they burst into fired one round from a .22 long rifle pistol. The round entered the point mans wrist and traveled like a weed eater up his arm and into his heart....DOA !

Albeit a golden BB sort of thang it happens.......:o(

Stay Safe !

The pups and the choice I have no argument with. For home defense I keep my mossberg 590 fully loaded with buck and bird. At inside the house distance the bird shot is just as good as double 0. The .45 is also handy as are a semi-auto AK and and Ar15 variant (match barrel and trigger flat top). What I reach for first though is the .45acp.

Stay well _ stay safe - Stay armed - yorktown

Living in Connecticut close to NYC and New jersey I am familiar with the need for abll ammunition in those jurisdictions because of the legal quagmire those areas are.

Same here in NM. With the caveat that Wal-Mart sells that Winchester Silvertip stuff. So I can say: "I don't know if it was 'lethal ammo'... I just bought it at Wal-Mart. It had a neat box."

The weird thing about NM is that the jury is more inclined to believe self-defense if you actually empty the mag into the guy and kill him. If you wing him and let him live, a NM jury will decide that you weren't in fear for your life.

For home defense I keep my mossberg 590 fully loaded with buck and bird. At inside the house distance the bird shot is just as good as double 0.

What do you think about using flechette for home defense purposes? Seems to me it would be as safe as birdshot indoors, wouldn't penetrate walls, and still make an intruder sorry he had been born.

Went to gunsite once and was in a class with two shop owners who'd actually used their sidearms in self defence and a bunch of cops and GI's (me). The instructor's had us fire on a target at 3 meters as we would engage a agressor/hostile with a weapon.

All the cops and GI's fired a simple failure drill with 2 too the body and 1 too the head and then went to ready pistol while these two shop owners emptied the magazines to a locked slide condition and were reloading when the instructors said cease fire.

Neither shop owner knew the other thus making it an interesting observation...........:o)

Stay Safe !

it's ability to function under "all " local conditions, cheap and available magazines and parts

IMO, these are truly the only advantages of the Kalashnikov over the Stoner design. Better watch it though when swapping parts out, the gammit on quality and standardization is all over the place. Certainly not nearly as inherently interchangable as AR componants.

As far as Kevlar goes, an SS109 will cut through it easier than anything you can put into an AK.

It would be a major violation, but of course – using the 50 cal. against troops is a violation too.

The "violations" are moronic when using common sense. Napalm, flame throwers, atomic weapons can be used, but not certain ammo? The idea is to kill the enemy, period.

"Hey Joe, those krauts over there are exterminating jewish people and burning the bodies. Lets go stop em. But first,,,check your ammo to make sure it's allowable, we don't want to kill em too dead".

Yeah, that 'failure drill' is a great technique for shooting paper thingeys that kinda look like a man, but if they're ducking and weaving and then suffering the shock of bullets hitting, I think you're going to have a rough time getting that nice two round group and the coup de grace shot in. Conversely, if the guy is still standing there waiting for the coup de grace shot in the head after two rounds in the chest, you need a wooden stake and silver bullets obviously.

Neither shop owner knew the other thus making it an interesting observation...........:o)

I agree--of course the 'scared shopkeeper school of combat handgunning' may be perfectly effective, but if it's not endorsed by at least one SEAL, a swat team or government agency, it just won't sell....

There may be nothing in the world more dictated by personalities, whims, marketing and fads than 'combat' shooting.

Living in Connecticut close to NYC and New jersey I am familiar with the need for abll ammunition in those jurisdictions because of the legal quagmire those areas are.

If I understand you correctly, you *aren't* saying that HPs are illegal in NJ, NYC, CT. You *are* saying that lawyers will attempt to exaggerate an incident to win claims for wrongful death suit, etc, right?

That being said, do you prefer to pack HP rounds over ball for self-defense or do you just stick to ball ammo(some prefer to defend with what they practice with)? I choose the former.

Molon Labe!

So much misinformation on this thread!

For the umpteenth time, the bullet's "stability" has nothing to do with the damage it make in the target's body. The M-16 round is lethal because of its HIGH VELOCITY. Velocity upon impact is the main determinant of fragmentation, which determines the size of the temporary and permanent wound cavities. Thsi has ben proven.

The M855 round is heavier than the old 55-gr. M193 ball round, and therefore will only fragment out to a shorter distance. Making the rifle barrels shorter than 20" contributes to the lack of velocity and therefore fragmentation and stopping power. A 16" barrel length (some of the troops are even using 11" barrels, which NEVER, even at the muzzle, accelerate the bullet to high enough speeds to fragment) the M855 bullet will only be traveling fast enough to fragment out to 100 yards or so. Beyond that, you're just poking .223 inch holes in people and waiting for them to bleed or go into shock.

Again, "yaw" doesn't come into play until the bullet is traveling through the body. If it came into play during flight, you wouldn't be able to hit anything.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.