Muslim leaders pledge to 'transform West': 'If Islamic state rises, we will be its army'

The West will never "reach the level of Islam," and Western society will be "transformed" through an "external or cultural invasion" by Islam, according to two Islamic leaders in Great Britain.

In recent interviews with the London-based daily Al-Hayat, Egyptian-born Sheik Abu Hamza, imam of the Finsbury Park Mosque and head of the Ansar Al-Shari'ah organization; and Syrian-born Sheik Omar Bakri, founder and leader of the Islamic Religious Court in London and head of the Al-Muhajiroun Islamist Organization, predicted Western civilization and law would eventually succumb to Islam.

The interviews, translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute, provide insights into how Islamic leaders attempt to use Western-style freedoms and laws to accomplish their goal of spreading the Islamic faith.

For example, Hamza, in his interview, said that although he lives in Britain, he does not consider himself a British citizen except "to the extent that I use my British documents to move around."

"I live here and I hold a passport," he said. "It is a superficial identity; real identity is in the heart and in the mind, and this is the [identity] that drives a man. This [identity] is Islam …"

Hamza also hinted that Islamic law would never tolerate certain types of behavior that are tolerated in the U.S. and elsewhere throughout the West.

"Every man can choose whether to be a human being or an ape," he said. "For example, if a man wears clothes he is respected; but if he takes them off, he should not be respected."

He also said, "an adulterer should not be respected," nor should "anyone who attacks little children" or "anyone who tries to turn himself into a half-man, half-woman …"

When asked how responsive the Islamic community in Britain is to a call to integrate into British society, Hamza said that could occur only in certain areas of life.

"If you mean that the Muslim integrates with the non-Muslim in matters that Islam does not prohibit, such as protecting the environment, defending human rights, and fighting corruption, usury and adultery, then yes, there can be such integration," he told the paper. "But if we take integration en masse, and we all integrate, the Muslim's daughter will come to him pregnant and he will say, 'Never mind, I'm integrated.' His wife will throw him out of the house and he'll sleep in his car, and she'll bring her lover home …"

For his part, Bakri said "in my method of education" he was flatly "opposed to the idea of integration."

"We do not believe that it is permitted to integrate into the societies in which we live," he said. "I am not a supporter of seclusion from society, and I am not a supporter of integration into it."

Bakri said he supported "interaction with society by means of my religion and my belief, in order to change the environment, not be changed by it …"

Converting to Islam would solve Britain's concerns over more stringent immigration, said Hamza, who also insisted his religion is devoid of hate.

"You cannot fight deeply rooted racism. It would be idiocy to think that these countries [in the West] will ever reach the level of Islam," he said. "They need much more time to even understand Islam. The only solution for stopping their racism is to call on them to join Islam, so they will realize what a civilization they are missing."

Hamza said he had "prepared" himself to go to Afghanistan but did not because "Allah decreed otherwise – primarily in light of the fact that my passport was confiscated by the authorities and now I am under house arrest." But if he had a passport, "I would go," he said.

Before Sept. 11, he said, "we all had intended to emigrate to Afghanistan – even after the events of Sept. 11. Many wanted to."

"In the beginning, al-Qaida denied any connection" to the attacks, he claimed, adding: "It turns out that al-Qaida was not connected to the events."

As a licensed British engineer, said Hamza, he could "prove that these [World Trade Center] buildings did not fall just like that because of a fire …"

"Anyone who knows the properties of these buildings knows that al-Qaida didn't do it. These buildings were blown up from within," he said – despite video footage broadcast worldwide of U.S. airliners being flown into both WTC towers the morning of the attacks.

Bakri said the West was guilty of imposing "man-made law" on Muslims, but that a "[future] Islamic regime will impose Islamic religious rulings on them."

"Either we preach to them [the West] and they will accept [Islam], or we will live among them and they will be influenced by our lives and will accept Islam as a political solution to their problems, not as an ideological solution," he said.

The Syrian-born Bakri also said, "Islam defended the religion of the Christians, the Jews, and others, and stated that 'there is no coercion in religion.' But the coercion is in the laws. Laws can be Islamic-religious and they can be man-made."

"Allah willing, we will transform the West into Dar Al-Islam [that is, a region under Islamic rule] by means of invasion without," said Bakri. "If an Islamic state arises and invades [the West] we will be its army and its soldiers from within. If not, [we will change the West] through ideological invasion … without war and killing."

Bakri said Islam sought to use Western-style liberties to accomplish its goal of subverting the West to Islamic rule.

"As long as my words do not become actions," he said, "they do no harm. Here, the law does not punish you for words, as long as there is no proof you have carried out actions.

"In such a case you are still on the margins of the law, and they cannot punish you," he continued. "If they want to punish you, they must present evidence against you, otherwise their laws will be in a state of internal contradiction."

By contrast, countries dominated by Islamic regimes are often dictatorial and curb the right to speak out freely, without fear of reprisal or harsh treatment by the government.

Bakri said any contradiction in Western law serves Islam "because we will be able to claim that the capitalist camp has failed in the face of the Islamic camp in actualizing the things in which it believes, like freedom of expression."

He said he stays "on the margins" of Western law by neither obeying them nor betraying them.

Asked if he was "testing" Western regimes, Bakri said yes. "We must prove that man-made law is a fragile law," he said.

"There is a pact between me and them, and I am not breaking it," he added. "I do not preach to kill even one Briton. But they have betrayed the pact [between us] by killing my brothers in Afghanistan," Syria and Iraq.

I have heard that reasoning before... it doesn't wash. They don't need to build "a plane"... as long they can buy them. And as long as the can afford what the market bears, then they will find someone, anyone, willing to sell them weapons and tools of terrorism.

That's why it is important to cut off the money... once that is done, then they not being able to build "a plane" will make sense.

Reflections of an American Muslim

We all know islam contradicts itself all the time. From the article:

"There are no absolute justifications in Islam and the Prophet has asked us to tell truth even under the harshest circumstances of oppression. However, one may choose not to tell the truth when:

a. He is under oppression and there is danger of losing his life if he told the truth."

Also the article fails to mention another lie: that of lying to unbelievers:

From the hadith of Bukhari, Volume 5, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir Abdullah:
Allah's messenger said "Who is willing to kill Ka`b bin al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?" Thereupon Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's messenger! Would you like that I kill him?" The prophet said, "Yes". Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka`b). The prophet said, "You may say it."

It'd be nice to know how much Saudi government money is being used to support this invasion,

From Stand Watch Listen's post right before yours - Today's Criminal Will Become Tomorrow's Islamic Terrorist:

"Colson also made mention that Al Qaeda training manuals outline plans whereby American inmates are targeted for conversion because such individuals may be "disenchanted with their country's policies." These "converts" are extremely useful to terrorist groups as the inmates "combine a desire for 'payback' with an ability to blend easily into American culture." This Islamic prison outreach, as recommended by Al Qaeda, is taking place - the most prominent ministry being the National Islamic Prison Foundation. Colson also notes that a main funder of such programs is none other than Saudi Arabia."

Who woulda thought, huh?

My own thought is that lying is like using a gun. We have uses for guns that have no moral implications -- target practice. Similarly, actors can utter untruths on stage that have no moral implications.

We lie in self defense, just as we use guns in self defense. In both cases there can be false justifications, and we do not need to accept everything at face value.

A lie is a kind of force. To justify its use is to justify the use of force. When someone justifies lying, it tells you a lot about their character.

How much plainer does it have to get before the socialist/fascist political elite of western europe wake up to the fact that this "demonic" cult is not expanding into europe and the US with the idea of assimilating. They come to destroy western civilization and the politico's are greasin the skids for them.

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