Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents

Syracuse Post-Standard ^ | 8/7/02 | John O'Brien

[archy]

It is not a matter of intent, but one of accident. A finger on the trigger by accident happens, and can happen to anyone.

It doesn't happen twice to anyone trained as the Russian OMAN special troops, mostly veteran Spetznaz personnel with Afghanistan and Chechnya combat experience, are trained.

Place a finger inside the trigger of your PM Makarov or APS Stechkin around their instructors, and they'll swat your hand with the *instructor's batons* they carry, frequently removing the offending finger/s.

Those boys play rough. But there's a lot to be said in favour of their practice. And they don't put their fingers on their triggers *by accident.*

Rooshian *instructors baton*:

[ScreamingFist]

"It is not a matter of intent, but one of accident. A finger on the trigger by accident happens, and can happen to anyone. I have heard of holstering a weapon having the hammer strap get caught in the trigger and an ND happening.

Hmmmm, I would think that applying 5 lbs of pull to a Glock trigger is something most people would have to consciously try to do. I think by far the majority of these discharges are caused by a round left in the chamber after removing the magazine (the trigger must be cycled to begin disassembly) and the person consciously pulling the trigger. All the rest is fluff thrown up as an excuse for stupidity. I'll say it again a different way, no manufacturer puts a safety on a gun to keep it from firing when the trigger is pulled, period.

[PatrioticAmerican]

We just had a veteran Denver cop do it. Fact is, safeties have a purpose because humans are fallable.

[Celtic Conservative]

being a law enforcement officer and someone who is responsible for My facilities weapons maintenance, it never fails to amaze me how so many officers can "forget" the basics of weapons handling. To reiterate what My trainers said when I transitioned into glocks "The only time your finger is in the trigger guard is when you are going to shoot something. Otherwise KEEP YOUR F&*!ING FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!!". The VAST majority of accidents that I have heard of with the Glock boil down to one thing: operator error.The only way to be safe with ANY weapon is rigorous practice with the duty weapon, and Constant, unwavering reinforcement of weapons handling basics. Firearms are tools, and are only as safe or unsafe as the person wielding it, bottom line. If the Glock is unsafe, it is because the owner has a brainfart, no more, no less.

My "dos centavos"

Slainte,

CC

[Tallguy]

Great story!

Glock Mod. 23 owner.

[archy]

...that the only other options on the list were all .40 caliber autos: Beretta and Glock. Swell. Either of which offers just as much opportunity for problems in the hands of a less-than-dedicated user, with the .40 Glocks notorious for their little *ka-BOOM* problem and *phase three* failures, and with at least two recalls of federal-issue Berettas for firing pin and spring failures...as well as the problems encountered by the Military with the M9 9mm service handguns. Heck of a choice.....

... I'm not a big handgun shooter at all, but I know what sucks and what doesn't. ;)

That's 7/8s of the battle right there. If you're familiar with a particular tool and it does the job for you, you're in business. I still like the old WWII German steel-framed P.38 pistols, which had very visible if non-adjustable rear sights that were nevertheless neatly tucked down well into the rear of the slide. The more recent issue West German P.1 pistols, available surplus for as little as $200 each are aluminum framed and a but less durable, but they'll do. When I first obtained and carried a Browning GP while on a civilian-clothes special duty assignment in the Army in 1967, I was really after a P.38, but the Browning served me well.

-archy-/-

[StockAyatollah]

This article and subsequent Glock-bashing freeper comments remind of the so-called "sudden acceleration" accidents by a certain model of Audi about 15 years ago. People swore the car just accelerated on its own. The likely cause of these accidents was the driver's mistaking the gas pedal for the brake pedal!

[toddst]

The Israelis do very well carrying their handguns with empty chambers, and have developed some very effective procedures, including the *slingshot* draw, for very quickly bringing the weapon into use in that condition.

That's not to say I favour the practice. I carried a 9mm Browning GP *Hi-power* virtually every day from mid-1968 to late 1976 . . . . and . . . simply carried the thing with the chamber loaded and hammer back in the fire position.

With the right holster, training and practice, most any condition of carry can be acceptably quick most of the time . . .

What you say is, of course, correct based on the assumption of thoroughly learning a technique and ongoing practice to maintain skills. Based on my own experience in several confrontations I would be uncomfortable carrying a weapon without a round chambered.

I'm no longer quick or strong enough to depend on getting a round chambered under the extremes of survival pressure. However, I do abide by Cooper Rules - "Every gun is always loaded" for openers. If I check the gun every time I pick it up AND am practiced in the use of the gun, I won't have a problem with a negligent discharge even carrying the gun with a chambered round. The same would be true of police officers, but it does take some work and ongoing practice.

[archy]

Hmmmm, I would think that applying 5 lbs of pull to a Glock trigger is something most people would have to consciously try to do. I think by far the majority of these discharges are caused by a round left in the chamber after removing the magazine (the trigger must be cycled to begin disassembly) and the person consciously pulling the trigger. All the rest is fluff thrown up as an excuse for stupidity. I'll say it again a different way, no manufacturer puts a safety on a gun to keep it from firing when the trigger is pulled, period.

It's much more common for an injury to result when a Glock or double-action trigger handgun is returned to it's holster after having been drawn, and the trigger finger remains on the trigger. As the handgun enters the holster, the finger won't fit, and it thereby presses the trigger back, since the strength of the entire arm, not just one finger, is being applied- and the weight of the handgun itself is helping.

The good news is that such discharges are generally pointed downward, toward the ground. The bad news is that often there's a foot or leg in the way....But with horizontal-draw concealment shoulder holsters, the gun may be leveled at another, with more tragic results.

This can be more common with cops, having their handgun in one mitt and with the other occupied with a portable radio, traffic citation clipboard, flashlight or other toys. But it most certainly is not just limited to those in that position.

Worse, Mossberg now makes such a double action trigger available for their police shotgun line. While the roofs and dashboards of police cruisers have long been repositories of ¾-inch holes from 12-gauge discharges and are nothing new, there's a better than fair chance the new trigger on the M500 pumpguns will add to their number- a step in the wrong direction.

-archy-/-

[ScreamingFist]

"We just had a veteran Denver cop do it. Fact is, safeties have a purpose because humans are fallable.

Well, we just recently had an FBI agent shoot a kid in the face with a machine gun during a boogas bank robbery pull over also, but I wouldn't blame that on the gun either. Scary. Reminds me of the time I went to see my brother at Fort Sill, he was battalion amorer at the time, waiting for his hitch to finish up. Outside the armory was a 55 gallon barrel, full of sand and perforated with holes. When I asked what the deal was, he said that was where all the weapons were pointed at and then "dry fired" to make sure no rounds were left in the chamber after clearing on the firing line.

[ScreamingFist]

Now don't you start in too Archy, LOL. I think you said it best, carry what you're comfy with, and apparently some people shouldn't be carrying Glocks.

[Travis McGee]

Many years ago the lead guitarist of Chicago did a similar thing.

Talk about a bummer at a party, brains all over the coke mirror.

[Travis McGee]

bttt

[PatrioticAmerican]

It isn't about the gun, nor has anyone blamed the gun. Just the opposite: People, including myself, blame the operator. Hence, operators are human and humans aren't as smart as they think they are, so we need mechanical safeties.

[ScreamingFist]

"Hence, operators are human and humans aren't as smart as they think they are, so we need mechanical safeties.

I would guess that there are more AD's associated with forgotten safeties than all other types combined. But by all means, rule number one is to carry what you're comfortable with.

[Skywalk]

I'm very inexperienced handling guns in comparison to these cops(and most of you guys) but why is it I can remember to never go near the trigger of my P-32, ESPECIALLY WHEN the magazine is loaded??!

I've gone through some chambering/unloading drills at home and not once was I nervous or concerned because my finger was never near the trigger. And a gun is only unloaded when the mag is out and you can visually verify the chamber is empty. Sheesh, it took me only a bit of reading and some time at gun shops and the range. These are the people the gun-grabbers want us to trust?

[Shooter 2.5]

"Hence, operators are human and humans aren't as smart as they think they are, so we need mechanical safeties.

I wonder how many of these "accidents" we would have if the dummy had his finger cut off after a discharge? Or, worse yet, taken to a wall and shot.

When I was teaching Boy Scouts, I had a Scout that would always fall back on the old excuse, "But, it was an accident."
I told the boys that there were no accidents. If they shot me, I would definitely, without pause, shoot them. I was lying, of course, but after that, I had their full attention.

[Shooter 2.5]

One important item has been forgotten.
Having your finger off the trigger does not mean resting in the trigger guard.
Off the trigger means that the trigger finger or index finger lays straight along the side of the frame of the handgun. That allows spectators or bystanders to know immediately whether or not the finger is away from the trigger guard.
This procedure also stops the dummy from holstering the gun with his finger inside the guard and then having the holster hit his finger and discharging the handgun.

[FreedomPoster]

There was a thread a while back where some of those chatting mentioned that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. They claimed that they are all "negligent discharges". From what little experience I have with handguns and what I've heard about most "accidental discharges", they're right about negligence. A weapon won't fire without some type of action outside itself.

Don't know if I was on that thread, but count me in that camp. It sounds like something I might have posted.

For the convenience of all, as a public service reminder, I point out

THERE ARE ONLY FOUR RULES!!

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Hit link at top for detail on the four.
Poor training and inept operation is the reason for these negligent discharges. The Glock is a fine piece of hardware. Someone on the thread made a statement about "complicated to clear" or some such. Dogsqueeze. Remove magazine, rack the slide open, ensure the weapon is clear, release slide. The weapon is unloaded until you put it down, at which point you again assume it is loaded. This is not complicated for anyone who can graduate from the 6th grade.